Poll: 63% of Americans favor letting illegal immigrants become citizens if they pass a background check and learn English

[GaryC 7]

so the pro-amnesty people are short-sighted and stupid? while the anti-amnesty people are t3h smartz?

I wouldn't use the word stupid. Short sighted is applicable though after the lessons taught to us after the '86 amnesty disaster. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." I will not be fooled again.

[GaryC 7]

It isn't an injustice to make them go home. It is justice.

Start looking at this on a case-by-case basis, and that black-and-white facade will quickly reveal various shades of grey.

Especially when you start to look at USCs who have resident illegal relatives, and illegal parents of USC children. If that were to happen, those protests in the south would only be the beginning IMO.

Again, we're disrupting the lives of American families each and every day. Millions of them. Why? Because one or more members of that family has broken the law. And nobody's marching. Those are Americans, mind you. What makes the illegal crowd better so that they need to be above the law? What exactly is it that entitles them and their families to better treatment than what a law breaking American and his family receives?

Numbers.

So if enough people break the law then it's ok to give in to them? That isn't justice, it's extortion. It's also gutless and cowardly.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It isn't an injustice to make them go home. It is justice.

Start looking at this on a case-by-case basis, and that black-and-white facade will quickly reveal various shades of grey.

Especially when you start to look at USCs who have resident illegal relatives, and illegal parents of USC children. If that were to happen, those protests in the south would only be the beginning IMO.

Again, we're disrupting the lives of American families each and every day. Millions of them. Why? Because one or more members of that family has broken the law. And nobody's marching. Those are Americans, mind you. What makes the illegal crowd better so that they need to be above the law? What exactly is it that entitles them and their families to better treatment than what a law breaking American and his family receives?

Numbers.

So if enough people break the law then it's ok to give in to them? That isn't justice, it's extortion. It's also gutless and cowardly.

Not to justify it - but to go back to Caladan's post from the other page:

The phrase 'possession is 9/10ths of the law' refers to where the general presumption lies in a dispute over property. If you insist that the land my house on should be yours because of the interpretation of some old statute that accidentally gave my greatgrandfather your greatgrandfather's land, but I'm living there and improving the property, chances are I have a pretty good case even if you're right on the merits.

As it'd apply here, it's not that the illegal immigrants are stealing anything. Just that if you fail to enforce the laws for 20 years, and let 11 million illegals in, while by the letter of the law they have no right to be here, the spirit with which the laws are enforced gives them a pretty good claim to legitimacy.

You're stuck on how unfair and unjust it is that illegals can do this and get away with it for many years. Fair enough - but they can and have done this, and millions of them are here in this country as we speak. I totally understand the resentment - but the reality is that law enforcement for isolated "individual" crimes doesn't lend itself very well to a situation where you're dealing with millions of people all over the country.

As I say, I see an amnesty of some sort to be inevitable. That said, I doubt anyone will get the legislation they really want. Likely we'll get a bunch of toothless bills and ineffectual half-measures.

[GaryC 7]

It isn't an injustice to make them go home. It is justice.

Start looking at this on a case-by-case basis, and that black-and-white facade will quickly reveal various shades of grey.

Especially when you start to look at USCs who have resident illegal relatives, and illegal parents of USC children. If that were to happen, those protests in the south would only be the beginning IMO.

Again, we're disrupting the lives of American families each and every day. Millions of them. Why? Because one or more members of that family has broken the law. And nobody's marching. Those are Americans, mind you. What makes the illegal crowd better so that they need to be above the law? What exactly is it that entitles them and their families to better treatment than what a law breaking American and his family receives?

Numbers.

So if enough people break the law then it's ok to give in to them? That isn't justice, it's extortion. It's also gutless and cowardly.

Not to justify it - but to go back to Caladan's post from the other page:

The phrase 'possession is 9/10ths of the law' refers to where the general presumption lies in a dispute over property. If you insist that the land my house on should be yours because of the interpretation of some old statute that accidentally gave my greatgrandfather your greatgrandfather's land, but I'm living there and improving the property, chances are I have a pretty good case even if you're right on the merits.

As it'd apply here, it's not that the illegal immigrants are stealing anything. Just that if you fail to enforce the laws for 20 years, and let 11 million illegals in, while by the letter of the law they have no right to be here, the spirit with which the laws are enforced gives them a pretty good claim to legitimacy.

You're stuck on how unfair and unjust it is that illegals can do this and get away with it for many years. Fair enough - but they can and have done this, and millions of them are here in this country as we speak. I totally understand the resentment - but the reality is that law enforcement for isolated "individual" crimes doesn't lend itself very well to a situation where you're dealing with millions of people all over the country.

As I say, I see an amnesty of some sort to be inevitable. That said, I doubt anyone will get the legislation they really want. Likely we'll get a bunch of toothless bills and ineffectual half-measures.

All I want is very simple and do-able. Secure the border and enforce our labor laws. If we stem the human tide of illegal aliens and make it very hard for them to get jobs they will go on their own. After that is done then we can start a guest worker program but they must apply from their home country to qualify. Tell me how that isn't something that we can do?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It isn't an injustice to make them go home. It is justice.

Start looking at this on a case-by-case basis, and that black-and-white facade will quickly reveal various shades of grey.

Especially when you start to look at USCs who have resident illegal relatives, and illegal parents of USC children. If that were to happen, those protests in the south would only be the beginning IMO.

Again, we're disrupting the lives of American families each and every day. Millions of them. Why? Because one or more members of that family has broken the law. And nobody's marching. Those are Americans, mind you. What makes the illegal crowd better so that they need to be above the law? What exactly is it that entitles them and their families to better treatment than what a law breaking American and his family receives?

Numbers.

So if enough people break the law then it's ok to give in to them? That isn't justice, it's extortion. It's also gutless and cowardly.

Not to justify it - but to go back to Caladan's post from the other page:

The phrase 'possession is 9/10ths of the law' refers to where the general presumption lies in a dispute over property. If you insist that the land my house on should be yours because of the interpretation of some old statute that accidentally gave my greatgrandfather your greatgrandfather's land, but I'm living there and improving the property, chances are I have a pretty good case even if you're right on the merits.

As it'd apply here, it's not that the illegal immigrants are stealing anything. Just that if you fail to enforce the laws for 20 years, and let 11 million illegals in, while by the letter of the law they have no right to be here, the spirit with which the laws are enforced gives them a pretty good claim to legitimacy.

You're stuck on how unfair and unjust it is that illegals can do this and get away with it for many years. Fair enough - but they can and have done this, and millions of them are here in this country as we speak. I totally understand the resentment - but the reality is that law enforcement for isolated "individual" crimes doesn't lend itself very well to a situation where you're dealing with millions of people all over the country.

As I say, I see an amnesty of some sort to be inevitable. That said, I doubt anyone will get the legislation they really want. Likely we'll get a bunch of toothless bills and ineffectual half-measures.

All I want is very simple and do-able. Secure the border and enforce our labor laws. If we stem the human tide of illegal aliens and make it very hard for them to get jobs they will go on their own. After that is done then we can start a guest worker program but they must apply from their home country to qualify. Tell me how that isn't something that we can do?

Sure. It is. I'm not saying we should do nothing - that's why the problem has gotten to the extent that it has. Though, without specific details on the proposals suggested (other than the general idea of securing borders and enforcingg employment laws) there is a question in my mind of how achievable those goals really are.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

so the pro-amnesty people are short-sighted and stupid? while the anti-amnesty people are t3h smartz?

I wouldn't use the word stupid. Short sighted is applicable though after the lessons taught to us after the '86 amnesty disaster. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." I will not be fooled again.

I would use the word stupid. The illegals are certainly smarter than those legals who support them. It is a biological imperative to act in one's best interest. Those who advocate mercy and amnesty are proclaiming that the illegals are acting in their own self-interest by coming here for a better life and opportunity, but they are not smart enough to realize that their own self-interest is damaged in the process. This is not natural, and indicates a lack of an ability to discern one's own self-interest and to put a limit on acts that threaten their own ability to maintain their society. The kindest thing I can say is there are blinders on, because the contradictions are glaring to those who have not lost their ability to set limits and realize their own self-interest.

Edited June 17, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[GaryC 7]

All I want is very simple and do-able. Secure the border and enforce our labor laws. If we stem the human tide of illegal aliens and make it very hard for them to get jobs they will go on their own. After that is done then we can start a guest worker program but they must apply from their home country to qualify. Tell me how that isn't something that we can do?

Sure. It is. I'm not saying we should do nothing - that's why the problem has gotten to the extent that it has. Though, without specific details on the proposals suggested (other than the general idea of securing borders and enforcingg employment laws) there is a question in my mind of how achievable those goals really are.

Any proposal that allows the illegals to stay (regardless of the name you attach to it) will be opposed from now on. It is obvious that the vast majority of Americans want enforcement first and then deal with a guest worker program. It isn't rocket science. It does not need to be a 700 page bill. Most of the solution is already on the books. Just enforce the laws we have and it will take care of itself.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

It isn't an injustice to make them go home. It is justice.

Start looking at this on a case-by-case basis, and that black-and-white facade will quickly reveal various shades of grey.

I really don't care. They are here illegally and they should go home. My heartstrings are not tugged by their plight. They brought it on themselves when they came. Call me a heartless ####### if you want.

I won't call you names, Gary. I will say, though, that most people are nicer than that. And that's precisely why what you're suggesting won't happen.

Most people are short-sighted and stupid. That's why there are polls like this one cited.

so the pro-amnesty people are short-sighted and stupid? while the anti-amnesty people are t3h smartz?

Those that support an amnesty may do it for any number of reasons. Doesn't mean they're stupid or short-sighted per se. Anyone that believes that the amnesty will solve anything in regards to illegal migration, however, would appear to be somewhat gullible. MHO.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

It isn't an injustice to make them go home. It is justice.

Start looking at this on a case-by-case basis, and that black-and-white facade will quickly reveal various shades of grey.

Especially when you start to look at USCs who have resident illegal relatives, and illegal parents of USC children. If that were to happen, those protests in the south would only be the beginning IMO.

Again, we're disrupting the lives of American families each and every day. Millions of them. Why? Because one or more members of that family has broken the law. And nobody's marching. Those are Americans, mind you. What makes the illegal crowd better so that they need to be above the law? What exactly is it that entitles them and their families to better treatment than what a law breaking American and his family receives?

Numbers.

Numbers? Bullshite! There are, for example, just below 650,000 illegals that are currently fugitives that will be forgiven and will have their evading the law validated by th government. It's not the numbers. Surely, we can handle 650,000 fugitives and get rid of them as has already been ordered. But that is, for some reason, not what the Senate wants to do. And it ain't because of numbers. So, the question still stands: What is it that makes them better than any American and his/her family?

[Donna A 4]

where do they come up with 63%. i dont know of anyone who favors it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It isn't an injustice to make them go home. It is justice.

Start looking at this on a case-by-case basis, and that black-and-white facade will quickly reveal various shades of grey.

Especially when you start to look at USCs who have resident illegal relatives, and illegal parents of USC children. If that were to happen, those protests in the south would only be the beginning IMO.

Again, we're disrupting the lives of American families each and every day. Millions of them. Why? Because one or more members of that family has broken the law. And nobody's marching. Those are Americans, mind you. What makes the illegal crowd better so that they need to be above the law? What exactly is it that entitles them and their families to better treatment than what a law breaking American and his family receives?

Numbers.

Numbers? Bullshite! There are, for example, just below 650,000 illegals that are currently fugitives that will be forgiven and will have their evading the law validated by th government. It's not the numbers. Surely, we can handle 650,000 fugitives and get rid of them as has already been ordered. But that is, for some reason, not what the Senate wants to do. And it ain't because of numbers. So, the question still stands: What is it that makes them better than any American and his/her family?

It's not about whether they're 'better' or 'more worthy'. Its that there's a lot of them - and trying to prosecute each and every one of them under the current removal/appeals processes would be not unlike prosecuting jay-walkers in New York City.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

so the pro-amnesty people are short-sighted and stupid? while the anti-amnesty people are t3h smartz?

I wouldn't use the word stupid. Short sighted is applicable though after the lessons taught to us after the '86 amnesty disaster. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." I will not be fooled again.

I would use the word stupid. The illegals are certainly smarter than those legals who support them. It is a biological imperative to act in one's best interest. Those who advocate mercy and amnesty are proclaiming that the illegals are acting in their own self-interest by coming here for a better life and opportunity, but they are not smart enough to realize that their own self-interest is damaged in the process. This is not natural, and indicates a lack of an ability to discern one's own self-interest and to put a limit on acts that threaten their own ability to maintain their society. The kindest thing I can say is there are blinders on, because the contradictions are glaring to those who have not lost their ability to set limits and realize their own self-interest.

If we're talking about 'self-interest' I'd suggest we apply that argument to recent elections - where people en-masse choose to vote for candidates who singularly fail to represent their self-interest. Isn't that at least partly why, for all their promises, the government adopts a business as usual approach to issues like illegal immigration.

Short of a miracle, or someone really radical stepping up I don't see any significant progress being made on this issue which will result in anything except a 'short-term' impact.

[pedroh 21]

cmon guys, they people y'all know are not a representative cross-sample of the whole US population... if 20 of your friends think the same as you, that's not a generalized opinion, cuz it's people that think like you, leave near you, or share something... saying 'but my friends and family do not think that' doesn't mean the poll is wrong.. sure.. polls are not always right either... but u can't deny the numbers in a poll with 'my friends and tons of people do not agree with it'..

anyway.. for the ones proposing the immediate deportation, what about the ones who have USC kids? where are you gonna leave those babies? or are you gonna deport USC's?? same for people with older kids.. those kids grew in the US, all they know its in here, u just can't deport his/her folks and leave them in the US alone, or deport them too..

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

cmon guys, they people y'all know are not a representative cross-sample of the whole US population...

"How can he have won? Nobody I know voted for him."

[pedroh 21]

cmon guys, they people y'all know are not a representative cross-sample of the whole US population...

"How can he have won? Nobody I know voted for him."

statistics and forecasting are a fun subject..