24 States Would Have No Legal Protections for Abortion if Roe v. Wade Is Overturned

[Boris Farage 353]

29 minutes ago, laylalex said:

It isn't as simple as that, and you know that. You're just talking in bad faith here -- what about victims of rape and incest? Do they "choose" or is that "choice" put on them?

It's interesting that your entire point rests on niche cases. The vast majority of pregnancies are just normal pregnancies with no drama whatsoever, and no medical or social need for abortion. Accept this and then we can have a productive conversation around the niche cases.

[laylalex 7,284]

4 minutes ago, Boris Farage said:

It's interesting that your entire point rests on niche cases. The vast majority of pregnancies are just normal pregnancies with no drama whatsoever, and no medical or social need for abortion. Accept this and then we can have a productive conversation around the niche cases.

I would say that it's a "social need" that we keep women feeling that they are more than just their biology. I would say it's a "medical need" to preserve their mental health. Accept this and then we can have a productive conversation about your prejudices.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,370]

[laylalex 7,284]

11 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

Yes, child bearing IS stressful.  As it was 1500 years ago.  And yet women did it daily.  Still do.  And medical technology and advances have made it MUCH safer, especially in the past 100 years.

 

I made the point of the dad who wanted to keep the kid, but mom didn't.  He has no choice, only her.  Seems a tad one-sided to me.  And I get that it is her body that has to handle the trauma, therefore her choice.   It just seems a bit unfair to him, just because he is biologically unable to carry the baby.

 

You said it wasn't fair to enslave the woman with birthing a child at the behest of a father who wants to keep it.  But I bet you're COMPLETELY on board with a woman ignoring his wishes, getting an abortion, then divorcing him and enslaving HIM financially for many years via alimony.  Am I right?  That's ok, as long as she doesn't sacrifice her body?

Is it safer? YES. Do women still die, who should not die from childbearing? YES. We are arguably the most advance nation in the world medically and there are still many unnecessary deaths from childbirth. 

 

Again, when men can face the risks -- which are more than just death -- of childbearing, they can have a say. 

 

Your last statement feels highly personal to me, and what I've said about my own situation. To be clear, I was not married to my ex when I had a termination. He did not even know about the procedure until near the very end of our marriage. He's not enslaved to me -- he entered into an agreement when we married to pay me a certain amount. It's not the same thing at all.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

14 minutes ago, laylalex said:

Is it safer? YES. Do women still die, who should not die from childbearing? YES. We are arguably the most advance nation in the world medically and there are still many unnecessary deaths from childbirth. 

 

Again, when men can face the risks -- which are more than just death -- of childbearing, they can have a say. 

 

Your last statement feels highly personal to me, and what I've said about my own situation. To be clear, I was not married to my ex when I had a termination. He did not even know about the procedure until near the very end of our marriage. He's not enslaved to me -- he entered into an agreement when we married to pay me a certain amount. It's not the same thing at all.

I didn't say anything about a prenup.  Just a scenario I gave where one or the other might be enslaved.  Curious as to which, if either, you are ok with.

[Rosalind F 178]

1 hour ago, Bill & Katya said:

So the odds are against a woman surviving childbirth?  

No, it is not what I was trying to say  

 

1 hour ago, Boris Farage said:

Then don't. 

Okay! Will not lol  

 

43 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

I would never take a position that asked women to remain celibate 

Me too!!

 

58 minutes ago, laylalex said:

Fair enough. @Rosalind F, I think you and I are on the same side of the page. What you're saying is that there are any number of health risks that are attendant upon pregnancy, some of which are life-threatening, correct? And that not to be pregnant is to avoid those risks?

It isn't as simple as that, and you know that. You're just talking in bad faith here -- what about victims of rape and incest? Do they "choose" or is that "choice" put on them? AGAIN, why would anyone want to force a woman or girl to bring a fetus to term in high-stress situations? I know you feel that you were somehow "robbed" of your child, but here's some free advice, just from me: go find a new partner who wants to have a child and try again. 

Exactly.

I was rather suggesting to freely have a choice of not staying pregnant if it happened... Sorry if my wording was confusing!

 

37 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

You say lucky enough not to die. And yes, women die giving birth or just carrying to term.  But I think the chances of them drowning in the tub are MUCH higher.  So I reckon women should stop taking baths, eh?  0.145% of the US population die by drowning in a tub annually.  About 0.021% are maternal deaths.  That's about... 6.9 times more likely to die in a tub.

 

You can give lots of valid reasons for aborting, but maternal death isn't one I'd worry about much.  Thankfully, neither did my mom.  Nor yours.  Aren't you glad she was such a brave woman?

Did you all folks just ignore the part about long-term health consequences?? It's not only the risk of maternal deaths. 

 

All I was trying to say is that there are multiple health risks associated with both the state of being pregnant in general and with the process of childbirth itself. The health-related consequences can last long after the delivery. 

And it should be a very conscious and informed choice of a person to stay pregnant and go through it. 

 

It just so happened that the male participant of the conception does not have to experience the health-related consequences of pregnancy. So the question of the male voice in the abortion decision falls into the "emotional" category rather than "health" category. 

 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

40 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

It was recommended that my mother abort me. She was very sick and now encountering an 'uhoh' surprise 'i had no idea i was even able to have a kid anymore' kinda pregnancy that was extremely high risk for her. She did not of course. I do wonder what her life would have been like if she had not had me. I don't say this with some sort of morbid fascination. She fell into a deep depression when I arrived and was not prepared/or really wanted life with another child and was (still is) a difficult woman of which, through no fault of my own of course, I now had to experience life with, and be made to feel like *her problems* existed because *I* existed. That was not an easy thing for a kid to grow up realizing. I have spent every day of my life being a dutiful daughter, but more like a housekeeper/nurse than someone she was joyful to have. My mom is brave for many other reasons, but I cannot say for certain that she was brave in this regard, more like very scared, angry about a lot of things, had no support in any way, and felt like she had no other choice but to continue her pregnancy or else disappoint her belief system.

 

Sorry to hear your childhood was spent being blamed for her issues.  Not sure that aborting or not would have made a difference (other than YOU not getting blamed of course); sounds to me like she was a woman who didnt mind throwing around a good guilt trip.   Horrible way to feel growing up.

 

 

[Boris Farage 353]

34 minutes ago, laylalex said:

I would say that it's a "social need" that we keep women feeling that they are more than just their biology.

That's certainly the first time I've heard the argument we need abortions so women can feel good about themselves.

 

If women want to feel good about themselves, they should perhaps not consider child murder. Issue solved.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,370]

bottom line is there is no clear cut answer to the abortion debate. Abortion is not a good thing. Neither is telling someone else what they have to do with their body. Lots of good arguments on both sides.

 

Bill Clinton said it best.  abortion should be safe legal and rare

 

The last true middle of the road public servant in america

 

All the anti abortion posters here are men. Noted

Edited November 26, 2019 by Nature Boy 2.0

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

7 minutes ago, Rosalind F said:

 

Did you all folks just ignore the part about long-term health consequences?? It's not only the risk of maternal deaths. 

 

All I was trying to say is that there are multiple health risks associated with both the state of being pregnant in general and with the process of childbirth itself. The health-related consequences can last long after the delivery. 

And it should be a very conscious and informed choice of a person to stay pregnant and go through it. 

 

It just so happened that the male participant of the conception does not have to experience the health-related consequences of pregnancy. So the question of the male voice in the abortion decision falls into the "emotional" category rather than "health" category. 

 

Obviously, the topic is highly emotional for many.  I know you don't know me, but I'm pretty much in favor of abortion for many valid reasons.  But I enjoy arguing both sides of each reason just to see what other options there are.

 

For what you're saying (if I'm understanding you correctly), i don't think abortion is the right answer... if you feel that the risk of pregnancy or the after-life is too dangerous or just not wanted, then by all means, don't have kids.  THAT is also a choice.  It happens to be one my wife and I discussed thoroughly prior to marriage,  and we took steps to ensure it doesn't happen.  Without having to terminate a life.  That was our choice.

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by ALFKAD

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

3 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

 

All the anti abortion posters here are men. Noted

Can you please list, by name, all the anti-abortion males posting herein, kind sir?

[yuna628 9,674]

15 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

Sorry to hear your childhood was spent being blamed for her issues.  Not sure that aborting or not would have made a difference (other than YOU not getting blamed of course); sounds to me like she was a woman who didnt mind throwing around a good guilt trip.   Horrible way to feel growing up.

 

 

Well, I do a lot of thinking on it. My parents by and large taught me how not to be by me watching their usually bad examples. So that's a positive takeaway. I would not have blamed her if she made a different choice, even though I would not be typing now. I always would prefer people to be happy, and maybe she would have been happier and ended up much different in her life. She was not physically or mentally ready to be a mother again. And I kind of think to other kids that end up growing up in similar or even worse situations. They have the kids even though they don't have a support system to work through issues they may have, they are too frightened at the prospect of abortion due to a variety of reasons. Maybe they feel they will be a bad person if they do, but the reality is they end up being... well.. really bad moms.

 

It's one thing to say a woman has to have a baby no matter what, but we all tend to forget what happens when the baby arrives and how many are subjected to a lack of love, care, or abandonment. NB makes a great point with his funny meme too.

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by yuna628

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,370]

3 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

Can you please list, by name, all the anti-abortion males posting herein, kind sir?

How could I? This is anonymous and I dont know any of your names, you been around for a while I think your real first name is Kip, correct ?

[laylalex 7,284]

40 minutes ago, Boris Farage said:

That's certainly the first time I've heard the argument we need abortions so women can feel good about themselves.

 

If women want to feel good about themselves, they should perhaps not consider child murder. Issue solved.

No one is saying that. I don't feel "good" about myself for doing what I did. It was the least worst decision I could make in the circumstances. No woman goes into this situation blithely, like, oh, I'll have one of those lunchtime abortions with my quinoa salad. I thought hard on what I chose to do, and considered the mental health of all those living who could be affected by my choice. It wasn't fun. But it was the right thing to do, for me. Please let me know if I can have an opinion on whether or not you have the snip, or what kind of birth control you choose (if any).

[Dashinka 24,491]

2 hours ago, Rosalind F said:

No, it is not what I was trying to say  

 

Okay! Will not lol  

 

Me too!!

 

I was rather suggesting to freely have a choice of not staying pregnant if it happened... Sorry if my wording was confusing!

 

Did you all folks just ignore the part about long-term health consequences?? It's not only the risk of maternal deaths. 

 

All I was trying to say is that there are multiple health risks associated with both the state of being pregnant in general and with the process of childbirth itself. The health-related consequences can last long after the delivery. 

And it should be a very conscious and informed choice of a person to stay pregnant and go through it. 

 

It just so happened that the male participant of the conception does not have to experience the health-related consequences of pregnancy. So the question of the male voice in the abortion decision falls into the "emotional" category rather than "health" category. 

 

I know with my mother, it was fortuitous she got pregnant in 1969 with my younger brother.  Back then, it was not common to go to the Dr. regularly, but when she got pregnant, they diagnosed her with non-Hodgkin’s Lymphoma.  Of course back then, usually being diagnosed with cancer left one with few options, but since it was diagnosed early, she was able to be treated and lived another 40 years.