'Don’t Tell Us What To Wear’: Japanese Women Protest Workplace Glasses Ban

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

22 minutes ago, laylalex said:

Thank you. It is not acceptable to have different standards of dress for men and women at work so that women are forced to be uncomfortable or in pain purely because it "looks nice." It's also not acceptable -- and I cannot believe I am saying this -- to accept that it's okay because it's the cultural norm to yell at a woman for being late bringing her husband a hot meal, or because it's cold. That man can get his own damn lunch!

Hush, now, take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard, and go make Alex a sammich.

 

What right do you have to declare another culture’s “rules” as inappropriate?  As long as no one is being molested/harmed, let them be them.  And to be fair, in several Asian cultures, the men dress nicely as well. When I was over there, my mechanic worked on my car wearing a suit with a white shirt (sans tie).  Pretty classy, compared to how grease monkeys in the US dress.

Edited November 9, 2019 by ALFKAD

[cyclone27 710]

Laylalex - you wouldn’t last very long in Japan that is more than obvious. 
 

Valentines Day is very nice there too. The women shower their lads with chocolates and gifts the men do not reciprocate. ☺️

[yuna628 9,676]

1 hour ago, laylalex said:

Thank you. It is not acceptable to have different standards of dress for men and women at work so that women are forced to be uncomfortable or in pain purely because it "looks nice." It's also not acceptable -- and I cannot believe I am saying this -- to accept that it's okay because it's the cultural norm to yell at a woman for being late bringing her husband a hot meal, or because it's cold. That man can get his own damn lunch!

I think we have to be careful here. Japanese culture is *very* complex, and different to our own, even though we have influenced it to a degree for several reasons and possibly in the wrong ways. Still, their culture is a very old one, modern and at the same time not so much. It can be difficult and harsh for young men and women of both dating age and career age due to extreme pressure and expectation of nothing short than perfection in all things. You churn out and get burned out, not to mention the pressures placed on you culturally by your own family. It is the way the society has decided is best for them, and there have been changes, significant ones, especially in the dropping birth rate and marriage sector. Some women are becoming more cautious in their life-choices, but any change will be slow. The lunch thing is an interesting aspect that happens in several countries (check out ''The Lunchbox'' it's a good film) though it is certainly inappropriate to berate someone about it. That however, is another cultural aspect of how Japanese men are raised, and it's another reason why the women there are being choosy. The culture will only change when it's ready to, and women will have to fight.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

17 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I think we have to be careful here. Japanese culture is *very* complex, and different to our own, even though we have influenced it to a degree for several reasons and possibly in the wrong ways. Still, their culture is a very old one, modern and at the same time not so much. It can be difficult and harsh for young men and women of both dating age and career age due to extreme pressure and expectation of nothing short than perfection in all things. You churn out and get burned out, not to mention the pressures placed on you culturally by your own family. It is the way the society has decided is best for them, and there have been changes, significant ones, especially in the dropping birth rate and marriage sector. Some women are becoming more cautious in their life-choices, but any change will be slow. The lunch thing is an interesting aspect that happens in several countries (check out ''The Lunchbox'' it's a good film) though it is certainly inappropriate to berate someone about it. That however, is another cultural aspect of how Japanese men are raised, and it's another reason why the women there are being choosy. The culture will only change when it's ready to, and women will have to fight.

Well said.  When Layla, or anyone here, is willing to commit Hari-Kari to get their point across, then they have the right to try an influence Japanese culture.  It's harsh, but it has worked for centuries.

[NikLR 13,227]

3 hours ago, yuna628 said:

I think we have to be careful here. Japanese culture is *very* complex, and different to our own, even though we have influenced it to a degree for several reasons and possibly in the wrong ways. Still, their culture is a very old one, modern and at the same time not so much. It can be difficult and harsh for young men and women of both dating age and career age due to extreme pressure and expectation of nothing short than perfection in all things. You churn out and get burned out, not to mention the pressures placed on you culturally by your own family. It is the way the society has decided is best for them, and there have been changes, significant ones, especially in the dropping birth rate and marriage sector. Some women are becoming more cautious in their life-choices, but any change will be slow. The lunch thing is an interesting aspect that happens in several countries (check out ''The Lunchbox'' it's a good film) though it is certainly inappropriate to berate someone about it. That however, is another cultural aspect of how Japanese men are raised, and it's another reason why the women there are being choosy. The culture will only change when it's ready to, and women will have to fight.

I agree.  I think it should change but that change has to happen within.  Just like any other cultural changes, the USA included.  Once it was culturally acceptable to have slaves. Now it's not.  

I can disagree with the culture, that doesn't mean I can demand it's change.  Which is what I meant by my statement.  Just because it's culturally acceptable, doesn't mean it should be.  

[Boketto 211]

5 hours ago, cyclone27 said:

Laylalex - you wouldn’t last very long in Japan that is more than obvious. 
 

Valentines Day is very nice there too. The women shower their lads with chocolates and gifts the men do not reciprocate. ☺️

Honestly that tradition of giving out obligation chocolates is actually a huge annoyance and we started a movement to avoid it. 

[TBoneTX 45,273]

12 hours ago, laylalex said:

it's the cultural norm to yell at a woman for being late bringing her husband a hot meal, or because it's cold.

Cf. "machista" culture in South America.

 

Wives of "machos" are expected to cook three full hot meals per day, every day, with no leftovers.  There is no discussion and no argument, and displeasure is not something that the wife wishes to risk.

 

On previous trip to Ecu, Mrs. T-B. had a hen party with her hyskool girlfriends and was regaling them about how little she had to do in terms of cooking, making lunch, etc.  One of her amigas actually exclaimed (with accordant facial expression), "O dios mio!" ("oh my God!").

 

At that point, I mustered more than my entire Spanish vocabulary to state that when I came home from work and asked where dinner was, Mrs. T-B. would say, "Silencio!  Mi novela!" ("Shut up!  My soap opera!").  Her amigas all laughed.

[yuna628 9,676]

14 hours ago, NikLR said:

I agree.  I think it should change but that change has to happen within.  Just like any other cultural changes, the USA included.  Once it was culturally acceptable to have slaves. Now it's not.  

I can disagree with the culture, that doesn't mean I can demand it's change.  Which is what I meant by my statement.  Just because it's culturally acceptable, doesn't mean it should be.  

I think we should be supportive of Japanese women who are trying to petition for change. But I don't think we can demand much from their culture. We have already imposed so much already. There is this African American lady online that does videos about Japanese culture and living and dating in Japan (she's a teacher). She's even done difficult subjects such a racism - and while it was annoying to her, she realized a lot of it is fundamental ignorance. She's a unique woman in a unique place and she attracts somewhat rude curiosity (without any understanding or realization of rudeness). She also had a lot of huge cultural differences to get used to, but takes it all in stride. She kindly educates, but isn't going to make a scene. Dating is very much more difficult for her. She is lavished with attention in ways an American male would not do, but ultimately she has rarely found a man that is ''willing to bring her home to mom" because of cultural pressure to find a Japanese wife. Whereas Japanese women are actively frustrated with their men, and are deciding to either take things slow, or look for foreign men. I hope that Japanese men will one day be willing to make significant changes, but it seems women have the head start and perhaps those woman must be willing to break the mold and raise their sons a little differently.

[laylalex 7,284]

I think I have been misunderstood in what was essentially a line I dashed off while getting ready to go out for the day. When I said men should make their own lunches, I wasn't demanding wholesale change from the outside. I know that there are movements -- as have been mentioned here by others -- within Japanese society for change to occur, for greater gender equity. This is, from my own experience in knowing Japanese women from college and in my greater social circle, something that many women want. I think yuna is right that change starts at home, and modelling the kind of change parents wish to see in the world is the way forward. What I don't have a lot of time for is the idea that "traditional" gender roles running through society is necessarily good for that society. I will call it out for BS while understanding that each culture needs to find its own way forward. I never proposed being the "great white hope" rushing in to fix everything.

 

I'm just amused, I suppose, that so much was read in to something I quickly typed while I was sitting around with my hair in hot rollers.  

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

17 hours ago, Boketto said:

Honestly that tradition of giving out obligation chocolates is actually a huge annoyance and we started a movement to avoid it. 

women against chocolate, that's a first.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

4 hours ago, laylalex said:

I think I have been misunderstood in what was essentially a line I dashed off while getting ready to go out for the day. When I said men should make their own lunches, I wasn't demanding wholesale change from the outside. I know that there are movements -- as have been mentioned here by others -- within Japanese society for change to occur, for greater gender equity. This is, from my own experience in knowing Japanese women from college and in my greater social circle, something that many women want. I think yuna is right that change starts at home, and modelling the kind of change parents wish to see in the world is the way forward. What I don't have a lot of time for is the idea that "traditional" gender roles running through society is necessarily good for that society. I will call it out for BS while understanding that each culture needs to find its own way forward. I never proposed being the "great white hope" rushing in to fix everything.

 

I'm just amused, I suppose, that so much was read in to something I quickly typed while I was sitting around with my hair in hot rollers.  

It wasn't you telling men to make their own sandwiches which was an issue (though I don't see THAT happening in Japan in my lifetime).

 

It was more of you thinking the two genders need to be more equal.  

[NikLR 13,227]

5 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

It wasn't you telling men to make their own sandwiches which was an issue (though I don't see THAT happening in Japan in my lifetime).

 

It was more of you thinking the two genders need to be more equal.  

Why not? If they are unhappy with how their gender roles are defined, then they should be more equal. If that's what the women of that culture choose to happen, I'm all for encouraging them. I always find it odd that many Manga and Anime have very powerful women as leads and yet the cultural norm is currently about submission.  Women traditionally in Japan had a lot of pride and were samurai once upon a time. And now women in that culture are fighting back as they know how.  They are defying their cultural norms by not marrying, by purposefully not having children, and by purposefully choosing their path through life in a way that allows them more self reliance.  I applaud them.  They will have to deal with backlash to how their choose to live their lives which makes their lives difficult.   I don't want cultures to change their norms to suit the world.  I want cultures to adapt their norms to allow people to be happy as they are.  If they are truly happy as they are, this wouldn't be an issue. 

[Boketto 211]

6 minutes ago, NikLR said:

  They are defying their cultural norms by not marrying, by purposefully not having children, and by purposefully choosing their path through life in a way that allows them more self reliance. 

 

Unfortunately this is also largely due to the fact that nobody has time for sex and romance with all the insane work hours. Sex is becoming a rarity. 

 

Japanese men also are becoming more “sexless”... a lot of psychological retreat into fantasy and disregard for physical intimacy. When you can simulate anything, it discourages people from breaking out of social anxiety and isolation. 

[NikLR 13,227]

4 minutes ago, Boketto said:

 

Unfortunately this is also largely due to the fact that nobody has time for sex and romance with all the insane work hours. Sex is becoming a rarity. 

 

Japanese men also are becoming more “sexless”... a lot of psychological retreat into fantasy and disregard for physical intimacy. When you can simulate anything, it discourages people from breaking out of social anxiety and isolation. 

Just watched a QE (that show on netflix... with a word that's apparently banned... ) where they were helping a couple in this exact same issues.  Marriage counselling is so very uncommon there.  People have a hard time talking about their feelings.  It was interesting and insightful.  It's just a small portion of someone's life though. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by NikLR

[Boketto 211]

5 hours ago, Ban Hammer said:

women against chocolate, that's a first.

Well... How would you feel if you were socially obligated to give away fancy boxes of bacon to *every* female acquaintance and coworker on Valentine’s Day? And on top of that you have to give an *extra* fancy box of bacon to your wife to show her she’s more special... 

 

No matter how much you love bacon, you’d probably get pretty tired of it...