Amnesty? What amnesty? Critics substitute fear for facts

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Enforcement of hiring practices sounds reasonable, but any type of mass exit of that many people is not rational - it would be a humanitarian crisis. You seriously wouldn't consider offer work visas for those who've been here for more than 5 years?

So, anyone that manages to successfully embezzle funds for an extended period of time should then forthwith not only not be charged for that crime like anyone else but also then have the legal right to continue that practice because it would be unreasonable to cut off the cash flow for said individual? Nice. I see now where you're coming from...

Edited June 9, 2007 by ET-US2004

[Jon&Sevi 0]

Don't get me wrong, LEGAL immigration is what makes this the greatest country in the world!

However, the bottom is: They are ILLEGAL; therefore they have no RIGHTS in the US. They broke the law of this sovereign nation. Go back where you came from and get in line like everyone else. I don't care about "breaking up" families... they weren't here legally to start with!

This (now dead) bill is a slap in the face of all VJ Members. We are playing by the rules AND there still is a chance of being told NO.

Just my 2 cents.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

and don't try to feed me that tired old line of the illegals are doing jobs americans won't do.

I'm so tired of that nonsense too. Even the Pew Hispanic Center acknowledges that there's not a single job in this country that an illegal does today for which you won't find at least 3 or 4 Americans or legal immigrants per illegal alien that do the very same job.

Edited June 9, 2007 by ET-US2004

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

and don't try to feed me that tired old line of the illegals are doing jobs americans won't do.

I'm so tired of that nonsense too. Even the Pew Hispanic Center acknowledges that there's not a single job in this country that an illegal does today for which you won't find at least 3 or 4 Americans or legal immigrants per illegal alien that do the very same job.

i'm still waiting for where the "most americans" came from. even on vj it's not a majority ratio.

Although polls show that most Americans support giving illegal immigrants a path to citizenship, the bipartisan immigration bill was in trouble Thursday evening. Never mind that what it offers is not amnesty at all. Never mind either that defeating it - thereby retaining the current system - means that the 12 million illegal entrants already here will stay. It's fear that counts, not reason.

most americans? i'd like to know where this report draws that gem from!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Legal immigration is such a b!tch, I cannot believe anyone here supports amnesty for illegal aliens. Shame on you Steven.

There is disagreement over whether giving them temporary work visas is granting them amnesty - that's at the heart of the argument here.

As for deportation:

- Aside from the costs, how do you round up 11 plus million people and deport them? What airplanes? Whose airplanes? Are you thinking this would be some military operation? Could our current military handle such an operation? Where are you going to put them? What about children? Do you separate them from the parents?

I can't believe that reasonably intelligent Americans can't see past the screen of emotions to recognize just what deportation would mean.

did they get here on an airplane? and why does the most expensive travel method come to mind for you? ever heard of buses? trains? and then we have diesel. diesel feet will take you just about anywhere

Ok, for the sake of the argument, let's say you have the method of transporting that many people worked out. Now, tell me how you you're going to round them up? Will you pull children from schools? See the reality is that deportation is a 'feel good' idea that isn't rooted in rationale. But if you can find some military experts or someone equivalent who can articulate in detail how to deport that many people, including rounding them up, I'd like to hear it. Because short of that, it's like saying we need to build a colony on Mars.

you're amazing, steven. for every solution you find another problem.

it's about attrition, steven. they can voluntarily turn themselves in for a free ride to mexico. or they can walk home after the money has dried up. then we can bill mexico for the trip

I'm not going to drag this out any further, but I just don't see any well thought out, reasonable solution other than offering temporary work visas. The idea that you propose will never be implemented by our Federal Gov't. - I'd bet you a six pack on that.

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

I'm not going to drag this out any further, but I just don't see any well thought out, reasonable solution other than offering temporary work visas. The idea that you propose will never be implemented by our Federal Gov't. - I'd bet you a six pack on that.

i'm sure nothing here will be implemented. after all, the big business which you've been all up in arms about is in bed with the government over this.

[Robor007 0]

I have a hard time believing that illegals are going to pay $9K in fines or go back to their country to to get permanent resident status. Also, if they're not going to deport illegals what is to stop them from just continuing with the status quo?

Do you know of any reasonable solution? (Deporting them isn't even an option)

Do you?

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

I have a hard time believing that illegals are going to pay $9K in fines or go back to their country to to get permanent resident status. Also, if they're not going to deport illegals what is to stop them from just continuing with the status quo?

Do you know of any reasonable solution? (Deporting them isn't even an option)

Do you?

yeah, he's got one.

[Robor007 0]

I have a hard time believing that illegals are going to pay $9K in fines or go back to their country to to get permanent resident status. Also, if they're not going to deport illegals what is to stop them from just continuing with the status quo?

Do you know of any reasonable solution? (Deporting them isn't even an option)

Do you?

yeah, he's got one.

Heh... Not your best smiley but good. I agree with Steven on a lot but IMO unless any immigration reform includes a penalty for those who don't comply it's worthless.

[prpplague 0]

over whether giving them temporary work visas is granting them amnesty - that's at the heart of the argument here.

As for deportation:

- Aside from the costs, how do you round up 11 plus million people and deport them? What airplanes? Whose airplanes? Are you thinking this would be some military operation? Could our current military handle such an operation? Where are you going to put them? What about children? Do you separate them from the parents?

I can't believe that reasonably intelligent Americans can't see past the screen of emotions to recognize just what deportation would mean.

one at a time! every time one gets pulled over for a traffic violation, every time they show up at work sites, every time they go to send money back to their country of origin. it doesn't have to be done all at once. back in 1942, the federal government was able to round up 120,000 japanese americans in just a matter of weeks. shouldn't be that hard for the federal government 60+ years later in the age of computer technology with expanded communcation lines to coordinate monthly "shipments" of 120,000 illegals back to their country of origin.

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

over whether giving them temporary work visas is granting them amnesty - that's at the heart of the argument here.

As for deportation:

- Aside from the costs, how do you round up 11 plus million people and deport them? What airplanes? Whose airplanes? Are you thinking this would be some military operation? Could our current military handle such an operation? Where are you going to put them? What about children? Do you separate them from the parents?

I can't believe that reasonably intelligent Americans can't see past the screen of emotions to recognize just what deportation would mean.

one at a time! every time one gets pulled over for a traffic violation, every time they show up at work sites, every time they go to send money back to their country of origin. it doesn't have to be done all at once. back in 1942, the federal government was able to round up 120,000 japanese americans in just a matter of weeks. shouldn't be that hard for the federal government 60+ years later in the age of computer technology with expanded communcation lines to coordinate monthly "shipments" of 120,000 illegals back to their country of origin.

hate to burst that bubble, but back then the aclu wasn't as powerful

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I'm not going to drag this out any further, but I just don't see any well thought out, reasonable solution other than offering temporary work visas. The idea that you propose will never be implemented by our Federal Gov't. - I'd bet you a six pack on that.

i'm sure nothing here will be implemented. after all, the big business which you've been all up in arms about is in bed with the government over this.

I agree, that's a big factor. Granting temporary work visas could actually prevent further exploitation.

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

I'm not going to drag this out any further, but I just don't see any well thought out, reasonable solution other than offering temporary work visas. The idea that you propose will never be implemented by our Federal Gov't. - I'd bet you a six pack on that.

i'm sure nothing here will be implemented. after all, the big business which you've been all up in arms about is in bed with the government over this.

I agree, that's a big factor. Granting temporary work visas could actually prevent further exploitation.

steven, do you really believe what you wrote above?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I'm not going to drag this out any further, but I just don't see any well thought out, reasonable solution other than offering temporary work visas. The idea that you propose will never be implemented by our Federal Gov't. - I'd bet you a six pack on that.

i'm sure nothing here will be implemented. after all, the big business which you've been all up in arms about is in bed with the government over this.

I agree, that's a big factor. Granting temporary work visas could actually prevent further exploitation.

And since exploitation is what illegal migration is really all about, if work visas will indeed prevent expoitation (which, in fact, they will not as they will create a class of people totally dependent on their employer) then no number of work visas will ever curb illegal migration. What an amnesty will do for sure - as we have seen - is trigger more illegal migration. In 2025 or thereabout, we'll be having debates abouts legalizing 30-50 million illegals because we can't send them home and for sure then the government is going to get really, really serious about enforcing the laws on the books and cracking down on this, that and the other.

How naive one must be to buy into the same ####### over and over again...

Edited June 9, 2007 by ET-US2004

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I have a hard time believing that illegals are going to pay $9K in fines or go back to their country to to get permanent resident status. Also, if they're not going to deport illegals what is to stop them from just continuing with the status quo?

Do you know of any reasonable solution? (Deporting them isn't even an option)

Do you?

I think I've stated it many times, but part of the solution is making available temporary work visas to low skilled laborers combined with stiffer penalties including possible criminal prosecution to employers who hire those without one. The conditions in the bill for those who want to become permanent citizens was reasonable, although I think we should gratuate the conditions so that those who've been here for more than a decade have minimal requirements for citizenship.

Second, revamp our trade agreements to ensure fairness, particularly for the small farmer - get rid of the subsidies we have on our agricultural exports. Set up possible trade penalties for Mexico if they don't invest more in their economic infrastructure.

Third - begin to form a North American Union, similar to the EU, with Canada and Mexico.

...

Every discussion of illegal immigrants that we have seems to get reduced down to simplistic, emotionally driven answers rather than well thought out solutions. And everytime a rational solution is offered, the argument goes back to, "they don't deserve to be here." That's when all chances of having a reasonable discussion fly out the door. If people want to drive these discussions solely on that slogan, then it's fruitless to continue this discussion.