No kids please, we're selfish

[Alex+R 0]

I thought all the stuff about preserving a race and that tangent she got off on about racial pride was a little bit odd and beside the point.

[homesick_american 1]

I thought all the stuff about preserving a race and that tangent she got off on about racial pride was a little bit odd and beside the point.

It's The Guardian, what do you expect? That whole paper is a little bit odd and beside the point. I should send you an issue sometime, makes for horrifying reading.

[Quinn 2]

Holy cow, Mark - can you send me the audio on CD?

I think regardless of whether someone wants kids or not - the notion is that we don't center our lives entirely on our own self interests. Marriage, IMO is about thinking about someone else and sometimes putting them first. We've lost some progress when people start believing that narcism is the way to personal growth.

To be honest, i only read the highlighted bits. But i think there's something positive to be said about self interest. It gets a bad rap in favor of altruism and self sacrifice but I generally believe in what a great motivator self interest can be. Does self interest, or selfishness result in some bad stuff in the world? Of course it does. But I have been motivated to do a lot of seemingly "altruistic" acts because of self-interest. Why do I things to help others, is it because I want to strive for the altruistic ideal, or does helping someone else make me feel good? If it makes me feel good, then it's self interested, I'm motivated to do something based on my own desires for pleasure. But the result is the same.

When I seek to achieve the very best at what I do, or to wish to do a job well, is that not self interest as well? Personal improvement is completely self interested, it seeks to better the self for a more fulfilling life.

When people fight for certain rights that have been denied to them, don't they do it because THEY want those rights?

I don't mean to keep listing examples, but I do think self interest is often only seen as an evil in the world. Sometimes it's a good thing!

[homesick_american 1]

I don't mean to keep listing examples, but I do think self interest is often only seen as an evil in the world. Sometimes it's a good thing!

Sure, sometimes. I'm glad not everyone thinks like the article's author, though. Otherwise we'd be in big trouble. However I don't think there's much danger of us running out of children anytime soon and people like the author should definitely NOT have children if they are unwilling to put anyone else ahead of themselves.

[Mags 112]

I thought all the stuff about preserving a race and that tangent she got off on about racial pride was a little bit odd and beside the point.

It's The Guardian, what do you expect? That whole paper is a little bit odd and beside the point. I should send you an issue sometime, makes for horrifying reading.

The Guardian is one of the most hilarious papers going in the UK. Unintentionally, of course. It is chock full of mistakes and spelling errors, to the point where nearly every edition has a few columns of mistakes needing rectification.

It is certainly one of a kind!

[Alex+R 0]

I don't mean to keep listing examples, but I do think self interest is often only seen as an evil in the world. Sometimes it's a good thing!

Sure, sometimes. I'm glad not everyone thinks like the article's author, though. Otherwise we'd be in big trouble. However I don't think there's much danger of us running out of children anytime soon and people like the author should definitely NOT have children if they are unwilling to put anyone else ahead of themselves.

She's not unwilling, she just prefers not to. I think the way you put it makes her motivations sound very negative. Preferring to put yourself before a child is only selfish if you already have children.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Holy cow, Mark - can you send me the audio on CD?

I think regardless of whether someone wants kids or not - the notion is that we don't center our lives entirely on our own self interests. Marriage, IMO is about thinking about someone else and sometimes putting them first. We've lost some progress when people start believing that narcism is the way to personal growth.

To be honest, i only read the highlighted bits. But i think there's something positive to be said about self interest. It gets a bad rap in favor of altruism and self sacrifice but I generally believe in what a great motivator self interest can be. Does self interest, or selfishness result in some bad stuff in the world? Of course it does. But I have been motivated to do a lot of seemingly "altruistic" acts because of self-interest. Why do I things to help others, is it because I want to strive for the altruistic ideal, or does helping someone else make me feel good? If it makes me feel good, then it's self interested, I'm motivated to do something based on my own desires for pleasure. But the result is the same.

When I seek to achieve the very best at what I do, or to wish to do a job well, is that not self interest as well? Personal improvement is completely self interested, it seeks to better the self for a more fulfilling life.

When people fight for certain rights that have been denied to them, don't they do it because THEY want those rights?

I don't mean to keep listing examples, but I do think self interest is often only seen as an evil in the world. Sometimes it's a good thing!

Taking care of yourself is not narcism. It's only when you place yourself above others that I think it staggers your personal growth. I think placing someone else's need before ours is the key ingredient of love. A spoiled child believes they are the center of the universe - makes it difficult to empathize or see from other's POV.

[mawilson 2,133]

*shrug* If that's how they feel, they shouldn't have kids anyway. Is this supposed to be upsetting? I'd be more upset if people like that had kids.

No, I posted it because I feel the same way. It wasn't supposed to be upsetting, I was

rather hoping it would be an eye-opener for some people. I applaud this woman for

writing this thought-provoking article and having the audacity to say what many of us

(childless couples - by choice) are thinking but don’t have the courage to admit.

Yes, I don't want children because they are untidy and would mess up my apartment.

I don't want them because they would steal time away from other things I'd rather

be doing. At the same time, I feel that if anyone should be having children, why

shouldn't it be me/us? I'd like to think that I could offer more to a child than a two-bit

hussy down the road paying for groceries with the mighty power of the food stamp.

And yes, I think racial pride is important too, unless you want everyone to look the

same in 100 years (dark hair, dark skin and dark eyes.)

[Mags 112]

Oops

Edited June 8, 2007 by mags

[PlatyPius 5]

I'm with Mags (obviously)... I can't stand children, and don't want any more.

Why do people act like a shrinking population is a BAD thing? I'd be quite happy if 99% of the population just went away.

Don't even get me started on childless or "less-than-two-kids" couples having to foot the bill for the breeders of the world...

What I'm damn tired of though is the looks of disgust and/or horror when Sian and I tell people we aren't planning on having any kids. They just can't grasp the fact that some people really DO dislike kids.

[mawilson 2,133]

Why do people act like a shrinking population is a BAD thing? I'd be quite happy if 99% of the population just went away.

I'll give you one good (=selfish) reason.

Someone needs to pay our social security bills when we retire.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I'm with Mags (obviously)... I can't stand children, and don't want any more.

Why do people act like a shrinking population is a BAD thing? I'd be quite happy if 99% of the population just went away.

Don't even get me started on childless or "less-than-two-kids" couples having to foot the bill for the breeders of the world...

What I'm damn tired of though is the looks of disgust and/or horror when Sian and I tell people we aren't planning on having any kids. They just can't grasp the fact that some people really DO dislike kids.

I agree that if a couple doesn't want to have children, they shouldn't. I don't think it's good to have contempt towards either way.

[ivona 0]

I don't agree with the lady, obviously but I also have no problem with her opinion as long as she's not trying to show it down MY throat....

I really do believe that people with suck dislike for children should not have any because it's not beneficial for either them or the children in question....

The only part of the article that (I admit I scanned through it) stang a bit was when she says how she can't understand her counterparts imprisoning themselves with children....for me, that is equal to people being thrown when PlatyP says he's not intending on kids- same thing...

Just because you want to have kids don't expect anyone else to want the same...but also, just because you decided that you want to do something else with your life that doesn't involve kids that those who are having them are being harshly punished by a cruel twist of fate or some such #######.....

It comes to mind that it could also be argued that all those people having children of their own genetically speaking (as in: man & wife, big belly, 9 months later) are selfish because they choose to raise a "product of their loins" when there is so many kids abandoned and in need of a better home...

It was a question I pondered seriously at one time.... so choosing to actually go through a pregnancy and give birth; does that make me more, less, or equally selfish than those who choose not to have children?

And I just have to add, not all children are messy and I have my son to prove it.... children can be trained (for lack of a less mechanical word) to behave in most amazing ways...

and just for the record, and not for sake of discussion as much: I think the argument of racial purity/ pride is complete and utter bollocks, but that's just me

Edited June 8, 2007 by ivona

[Quinn 2]

Taking care of yourself is not narcism. It's only when you place yourself above others that I think it staggers your personal growth. I think placing someone else's need before ours is the key ingredient of love. A spoiled child believes they are the center of the universe - makes it difficult to empathize or see from other's POV.

Placing yourself above others also isn't always narcissism either. If not placing yourself above others furthers your personal growth, isn't not placing yourself above others ultimately self interested? The fundamental problem, and i believe, the difference in our opinion here, is that self-interest is often used as a synonym for narcissism or selfishness.

Edited June 8, 2007 by Quinn

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Taking care of yourself is not narcism. It's only when you place yourself above others that I think it staggers your personal growth. I think placing someone else's need before ours is the key ingredient of love. A spoiled child believes they are the center of the universe - makes it difficult to empathize or see from other's POV.

Placing yourself above others also isn't always narcissism either. If not placing yourself above others furthers your personal growth, isn't not placing yourself above others ultimately self interested? The fundamental problem, and i believe, the difference in our opinion here, is that self-interest is often used as a synonym for narcissism or selfishness.

I don't see it in such a negative way - I actually think doing things for yourself is a positive thing but we also need other people - we are social beings. People can neglect themselves as badly as they would their own child or spouse. The argument was made that children interfere or impede taking care of oneself and I think that is a misnomer as well.