No kids please, we're selfish

[sparkofcreation 0]

okay, I'll play too ... just for discussion & fun ... here goes:

so ... me as a childless adult, who pays taxes ... definitely school taxes as part of it ... at an equal rate to you ... what is my benefit to educate your daughter? I'd like to see my taxes reduced because I am less of a burden on social services than you are.

As you're asking for argument's sake, here's an answer ....

And do you then promise to, in the future, never use the services of anyone who's gone to public school? Are you going to screen your doctors, lawyers, mechanics, anyone who you need to do something for you? If you ever see a doctor or lawyer or any other professional who provides a service to you after having gone to public schools, you have reaped the benefit of the public school system. For that matter, if your teenage next-door neighbor is at school or playing football or doing his homework instead of vandalizing your car, you're reaping a benefit.

Which, I might add, is the same benefit that a parent gets. The *child* gets a direct benefit, but what *direct* benefit does a parent get from a public school system? What direct benefit does the parent get that they wouldn't have gotten without having children?

This is a hot-button issue for me, because I grew up in a school district where every year, the elderly residents who all lived in one section of town would charter a bus to go vote down the school budget because they "weren't getting any benefit" from it. Yes, and I'm sure all their doctors had been privately educated.

It's like people who think they shouldn't have to pay taxes for roads because they don't have a car. Do you buy only locally grown food and locally produced goods (by locally I mean "within a couple miles of your house"), or do you buy food/goods that had to be trucked there? If you hurt yourself, would you prefer the EMTs walk to your house and then walk you to the hospital on a stretcher, or would you like an ambulance?

I'm not elderly ... in my mid 40's, have no children, yet am taxed as if I do. Why is this fair to me, to wait until I'm the same age as a person who had children to receive a reduction benefit? (if I understood your sentence correctly)

[mawilson 2,133]

You breathe, drink, eat, and contribute to global warming. That makes YOU my business then. You are one more person to share this earth with but I'm not complaining.

I agree with you Karen, unfortunately there's nothing I can do about the fact that I'm here.

My parents made it your business, not me. I wish I hadn't been born, but it wasn't my decision.

[sparkofcreation 0]

.... Therefore, it could be argued that the only possible reason someone would have a child instead of adopting one would be the selfish reason that they think their genes are better or that they deserve to carry on their genetic line or whatever.

How about wanting to participate in one of the most amazing things in life: giving life to another person that grew inside of you. Not thinking their genes are better, but wanting to be a part of something that has gone on since the beginning of time.

Sure. Who wants to? You want to. If you want a baby because you want to participate in something (etc.), then yes, that's a selfish reason. Now, as someone said above, being selfish is not necessarily always bad. But if your reason for doing something is that you want to do it, then your reason is selfish. If my reason for not doing it is because I want to do something else, that's selfish also. And of course, it can be argued that all reasons are selfish, anyway. Didn't you see that episode of "Friends"?

I know this isn't the case for everyone, but don't many people feel the desire to procreate instinctually? In which case, how could that possibly be selfish?

It seems like the definition of selfish is being warped here.

Can an instinctual desire be selfish?

Of course. If I'm very hungry because I haven't eaten all day, I may have an instinctual desire to eat the pie that's sitting on the counter when I get home from work. But since that pie is meant to be taken to church tomorrow for a bake sale, it would be selfish and wrong for me to eat it, and I should eat something else instead. If my husband sees an attractive woman, he has an instinctual desire to have sex with her. But to do so, and put his desire over the good of our marriage, would also be selfish and wrong.

Edited June 9, 2007 by sparkofcreation

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

And do you then promise to, in the future, never use the services of anyone who's gone to public school? Are you going to screen your doctors, lawyers, mechanics, anyone who you need to do something for you? If you ever see a doctor or lawyer or any other professional who provides a service to you after having gone to public schools, you have reaped the benefit of the public school system.

Bear in mind, said private-school-educated doctor should also have never intellectually benefited in any way shape or form from any public-school-educated peer.

Education, when properly delivered, benefits more than the immediate recipient.

Good post I hear ya on the senior citizens.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I wish I hadn't been born...

Ok, where is Dean when you need him?

[sparkofcreation 0]

Good post I hear ya on the senior citizens.

Thanks. You're not from Old Bridge, are you? That's where I grew up, and I know you're somewhere in central NJ ... maybe we went to the same schools ...

[natty bumppo 297]

okay, I'll play too ... just for discussion & fun ... here goes:

so ... me as a childless adult, who pays taxes ... definitely school taxes as part of it ... at an equal rate to you ... what is my benefit to educate your daughter? I'd like to see my taxes reduced because I am less of a burden on social services than you are.

As you're asking for argument's sake, here's an answer ....

And do you then promise to, in the future, never use the services of anyone who's gone to public school? Are you going to screen your doctors, lawyers, mechanics, anyone who you need to do something for you? If you ever see a doctor or lawyer or any other professional who provides a service to you after having gone to public schools, you have reaped the benefit of the public school system. For that matter, if your teenage next-door neighbor is at school or playing football or doing his homework instead of vandalizing your car, you're reaping a benefit.

Which, I might add, is the same benefit that a parent gets. The *child* gets a direct benefit, but what *direct* benefit does a parent get from a public school system? What direct benefit does the parent get that they wouldn't have gotten without having children?

This is a hot-button issue for me, because I grew up in a school district where every year, the elderly residents who all lived in one section of town would charter a bus to go vote down the school budget because they "weren't getting any benefit" from it. Yes, and I'm sure all their doctors had been privately educated.

It's like people who think they shouldn't have to pay taxes for roads because they don't have a car. Do you buy only locally grown food and locally produced goods (by locally I mean "within a couple miles of your house"), or do you buy food/goods that had to be trucked there? If you hurt yourself, would you prefer the EMTs walk to your house and then walk you to the hospital on a stretcher, or would you like an ambulance?

I'm not elderly ... in my mid 40's, have no children, yet am taxed as if I do. Why is this fair to me, to wait until I'm the same age as a person who had children to receive a reduction benefit? (if I understood your sentence correctly)

Thank you for catching the spirit of my comments.

It’s also a hot button for me for the same reasons you gave. I just played the “devils advocate” for a bit today to share some of the arguments and discussions I’ve had and heard over the years with DINKs.

Good post !!

[Jenn! 918]

I know this isn't the case for everyone, but don't many people feel the desire to procreate instinctually? In which case, how could that possibly be selfish?

It seems like the definition of selfish is being warped here.

Can an instinctual desire be selfish?

Of course. If I'm very hungry because I haven't eaten all day, I may have an instinctual desire to eat the pie that's sitting on the counter when I get home from work. But since that pie is meant to be taken to church tomorrow for a bake sale, it would be selfish and wrong for me to eat it, and I should eat something else instead. If my husband sees an attractive woman, he has an instinctual desire to have sex with her. But to do so, and put his desire over the good of our marriage, would also be selfish and wrong.

Interesting, I'm gonna have to think about this some more. I see your point, but I'm not sure yet if I agree with the analogy. If there were no other food besides that pie, then I don't believe it would be selfish to eat it. There aren't any alternatives when it comes to procreating, either you do or you don't.

[sparkofcreation 0]

I know this isn't the case for everyone, but don't many people feel the desire to procreate instinctually? In which case, how could that possibly be selfish?

It seems like the definition of selfish is being warped here.

Can an instinctual desire be selfish?

Of course. If I'm very hungry because I haven't eaten all day, I may have an instinctual desire to eat the pie that's sitting on the counter when I get home from work. But since that pie is meant to be taken to church tomorrow for a bake sale, it would be selfish and wrong for me to eat it, and I should eat something else instead. If my husband sees an attractive woman, he has an instinctual desire to have sex with her. But to do so, and put his desire over the good of our marriage, would also be selfish and wrong.

Interesting, I'm gonna have to think about this some more. I see your point, but I'm not sure yet if I agree with the analogy. If there were no other food besides that pie, then I don't believe it would be selfish to eat it. There aren't any alternatives when it comes to procreating, either you do or you don't.

Sure there are. If you have the urge to procreate, you could instead choose to volunteer to work with a children's charity, or baby-sit, or be a strong role model to a niece/nephew/neighbor who might need one, or adopt, or be a foster parent, or breed puppies....

Not to mention that unlike food, procreation is an instinct that is not necessary to your personal survival. You are unlikely to die from never having had children of your own.

[homesick_american 1]

Plus, paying for today's children to be educated is in YOUR best interests too. Also, in some states (past a certain age) you can get some of the school money knocked off your property taxes.

depends on where you live

Yes, I believe the "in some states" part of my post covered that.

[Rhiannon 0]

what an interesting debate

it really shows how much so many societies have changed from communal to individual. It used to take a village to raise a child; in many neighborhoods children were considered the product of everyone. In southern black culture, if you did something stupid, you got clocked by the adult who caught you (who you called by Mr or Ms and their last name) AND you got clocked by your parents when they sent your butt home. All the adults (whether childless or not) had a hand in the raising of you, therefore you had not just one set of parents but a whole gaggle. And I know this is true in other cultures as well. But now with the contraction of the family unit to the nuclear people are more isolated; parents are more stressed because they and only they are responsible for their child. They can't send Junior or Juniette down the street to an aunt's when they've had enough.

IMO we're all responsible for every child born on this planet, just as everyone else was responsible for us when we were born. By paying taxes, giving to charities, noticing that lost little boy in the mall and taking him to security, what have you, it's just part of being in society. Be happy that you helped educate someone who is now giving you knee-replacement surgery, even if you are childless. Be happy that you adopted a wonderful child, even though you have fabulous genes that could have been passed on. Be happy that you had a kid, even though you could have adopted one of the countless orphans in the world. We all need to do what makes sense for us in our lives but be supporting of every one else's decision. We are far too isolated IMO.

In complete disclosure, I used to run at the very word "baby"; they freaked me out, I looked at my sister's son and started to sweat. And then I met my honey; and now all I can think of is children! Whether we adopt or have them I don't really care.

ANd it drives me crazy that the article implies several times that once you have children you stop having fun. I can't speak as a mother just yet, but it seems to me life stops being fun only if you subscribe to that commercial version of 'parenthood' that consists of all the freaking gadgets in the world and reams of articles and books and special buggies and what-have-you. People have been doing without them for thousands of years and we still seem to be coming down the pike...

Sorry for the long post I just read all the posts and tried to respond concisely and clearly.

I love this website.

[Ban Hammer 13,651]

silly americans, kids are for illegal immigrants

[natty bumppo 297]

Plus, paying for today's children to be educated is in YOUR best interests too. Also, in some states (past a certain age) you can get some of the school money knocked off your property taxes.

depends on where you live

Yes, I believe the "in some states" part of my post covered that.

it's the (past a certain age) that is the issue.

at what age ... 65? or 67.5 (depending B. Boomer status)? Then you're retired and other factors kick in.

nice tax break for everyone.

[natty bumppo 297]

what an interesting debate

it really shows how much so many societies have changed from communal to individual. It used to take a village to raise a child; in many neighborhoods children were considered the product of everyone. In southern black culture, if you did something stupid, you got clocked by the adult who caught you (who you called by Mr or Ms and their last name) AND you got clocked by your parents when they sent your butt home. All the adults (whether childless or not) had a hand in the raising of you, therefore you had not just one set of parents but a whole gaggle. And I know this is true in other cultures as well. But now with the contraction of the family unit to the nuclear people are more isolated; parents are more stressed because they and only they are responsible for their child. They can't send Junior or Juniette down the street to an aunt's when they've had enough.

try this in today’s society. I hope you have a good lawyer.

[homesick_american 1]

Plus, paying for today's children to be educated is in YOUR best interests too. Also, in some states (past a certain age) you can get some of the school money knocked off your property taxes.

depends on where you live

Yes, I believe the "in some states" part of my post covered that.

it's the (past a certain age) that is the issue.

at what age ... 65? or 67.5 (depending B. Boomer status)? Then you're retired and other factors kick in.

nice tax break for everyone.

Clearly you can't please everyone at the same time but speaking personally I think it's incredibly selfish to resent having to pay for everyone to receive a free public education. Free schooling is what makes good countries great. Just look at some of the crappiest countries on the planet...they usually have something in common. No free schools. If you want to turn America into a third-world country, by all means scrap free school.