25,000 Evangelical Christian Youth rally against promiscuity and corporate culture

[incanada1234 0]

What if nobody is truly qualified to show you the Light and the Way? Can you claim ignorance? I personally believe God's words are His......who else is qualified to speak for him? Can you really be shown the Light and the Way without God Himself?

The case could be made that we are ALL ignorant in his ways.

It gets confusing because really, God has it all planned out from the beginning who will believe and who won't, who will go to heaven and who won't. It's predestination but you have to live your life as it isn't. If that makes any sense. Which it really kind of doesn't, but it does.

I'm confoosed.

[CanGal 1]

I don't see why any of us are having such an issue being so civil, we are all adults aren't we?

[ace13 0]

He gave all man free choice ...

Under that definintion, no He did not.

Take for example:

A jungle tribe in Africa that has had little or no contact with the outside world and does not know what Christianity even is.........what about them? Are they doomed for hell over something they do not even have a concept of? Does that sound Christian to you?

My God would not abandon them.

If you don't know, you don't know and I can't believe they would go to hell either. I think ignorance counts for something. You could use the same for babies that die. On the other hand, if you are shown the Light and the Way and you choose not to follow, that is not ignorance-that is to defy.

What if nobody is truly qualified to show you the Light and the Way? Can you claim ignorance? I personally believe God's words are His......who else is qualified to speak for him? Can you really be shown the Light and the Way without God Himself?

The case could be made that we are ALL ignorant in his ways.

Yes, Merc. That is what I keep trying to get at, and no one understand what I'm asking or they don't know how to answer me.

From what you have said, you have chosen not to believe. Ok. That was your choice. My faith believes all will stand before the judgment seat of Christ one day and we will be judged for what we have done, both the good and the bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10) If you don't believe that, fine. Hope there really isn't a God but I would be really scared if I was you.

[chri'stina 190]

He gave all man free choice ...

Under that definintion, no He did not.

Take for example:

A jungle tribe in Africa that has had little or no contact with the outside world and does not know what Christianity even is.........what about them? Are they doomed for hell over something they do not even have a concept of? Does that sound Christian to you?

My God would not abandon them.

If you don't know, you don't know and I can't believe they would go to hell either. I think ignorance counts for something. You could use the same for babies that die. On the other hand, if you are shown the Light and the Way and you choose not to follow, that is not ignorance-that is to defy.

What if nobody is truly qualified to show you the Light and the Way? Can you claim ignorance? I personally believe God's words are His......who else is qualified to speak for him? Can you really be shown the Light and the Way without God Himself?

The case could be made that we are ALL ignorant in his ways.

Merc you know I respect you and all...but you are getting very philosophical here. I believe the New Testament really does answer all these hypothetical Q's you are asking. Why would Jesus tell his disciples to go preach the gospel, if no one but God himself was allowed to talk about it? And Paul in the bible went around preaching and many many others. I feel what you are saying is kind of a western world attitude, of not wanting to ever step on anyone's toes or every make anyone upset about your beliefs. The beliefs of the bible themselves, are definitely not going to be liked by everyone. But I feel like you are turning it into a philosophical thing that is getting more and more complex, rather than the simple gospel of Jesus...that he came to die for us, because we could not save ourselves, and that we are to live a life that honors him. If we spend all our time arguing about who should or should not ever mention God to people, that would kind of defeat the purpose of him coming.

Again we have to agree to disagree I guess.

Edited June 9, 2006 by stina&suj

[mercuryroad 0]

He gave all man free choice ...

Under that definintion, no He did not.

Take for example:

A jungle tribe in Africa that has had little or no contact with the outside world and does not know what Christianity even is.........what about them? Are they doomed for hell over something they do not even have a concept of? Does that sound Christian to you?

My God would not abandon them.

The bible does deal with this. If you have not actually heard about salvation through Jesus, you would not be held accountable to that. You would be judged on the way you lived your life according to the moral law written naturally in our hearts by God.

But something you said earlier has me confused too...that works are the main factor for going to heaven? But the bible says many times, you are not saved through works alone. As a Christian you are called to do good works, but not because it attains salvation, but because God wants us to try to do good for ppl around us. It's a selfless act, not something that alone would save us. If someone has never heard the gospel, then I do feel they would be judged by God on works and how they lived their lives. But once you know something, you are held accountable to make a decision, in my opinion.

Romans 9:31-33 ....31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble

and a rock that makes them fall,

and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.".....

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This opt out clause sounds suspicious to me......

As for the works....

I understand the words as they were written by man. But....something in your gut has to tell you that belief is not enough in life and in spirit. It's like a blank check for doing whatever the heck you want.

These passages refer to works that people want to do to get into heaven. Doing works for those purpose is not in line with the teaching....as you have pointed out. These are not the works I'm speaking of. I speak of the selfless acts, the ones that are not coerced.....how you live every day.

[Jenn! 918]

He gave all man free choice ...

Under that definintion, no He did not.

Take for example:

A jungle tribe in Africa that has had little or no contact with the outside world and does not know what Christianity even is.........what about them? Are they doomed for hell over something they do not even have a concept of? Does that sound Christian to you?

My God would not abandon them.

If you don't know, you don't know and I can't believe they would go to hell either. I think ignorance counts for something. You could use the same for babies that die. On the other hand, if you are shown the Light and the Way and you choose not to follow, that is not ignorance-that is to defy.

What if nobody is truly qualified to show you the Light and the Way? Can you claim ignorance? I personally believe God's words are His......who else is qualified to speak for him? Can you really be shown the Light and the Way without God Himself?

The case could be made that we are ALL ignorant in his ways.

Merc you know I respect you and all...but you are getting very philosophical here. I believe the New Testament really does answer all these hypothetical Q's you are answering. Why would Jesus tell his disciples to go preach the gospel, if no one but God himself was allowed to talk about it? And Paul in the bible went around preaching and many many others. I feel what you are saying is kind of a western world attitude, of not wanting to ever step on anyone's toes or every make anyone upset about your beliefs. The beliefs of the bible themselves, are definitely not going to be liked by everyone. But I feel like you are turning it into a philosophical thing that is getting more and more complex, rather than the simple gospel of Jesus...that he came to die for us, because we could not save ourselves, and that we are to live a life that honors him. If we spend all our time arguing about who should or should not ever mention God to people, that would kind of defeat the purpose of him coming.

Again we have to agree to disagree I guess.

Honestly, I don't mean to offend here. But it sounds like your saying, "just don't think too hard about it."

[Sister Fracas 5]

Ironically, these threads do more and more to cement my beliefs that there is no heaven or hell. hmmm SO I really appreciate them. Thanks everyone for all your comments.

Nice. Likewise, everytime I read your posts they cement my beliefs that nothing you say ever interests me.

As Martin Luther said on his deathbed, "We're all beggars showing other beggars where to find bread."

Incanada...your jabs don't bother me in the least and I don't care if you are interested in my posts either. Perhaps you should just put me on ignore if you aren't interested....BUT, if you care to really read what I said, it says MY beliefs. They are personal, belong to me and if you believe in heaven and hell...fine for you. Do whatever you feel you need to get to heaven.

[CanGal 1]

I'm confoosed.

Me too ...

It gets confusing because really, God has it all planned out from the beginning who will believe and who won't, who will go to heaven and who won't. It's predestination but you have to live your life as it isn't. If that makes any sense. Which it really kind of doesn't, but it does.

If this is true though, then we essentially don't really have "Free" choice , I know what your saying though, I've always thought about it that way and it still confuses me to this day. I guess I'm not God though which is why I can't understand certain things to this day nor see the bigger picture or plan.

[Jenn! 918]

He gave all man free choice ...

Under that definintion, no He did not.

Take for example:

A jungle tribe in Africa that has had little or no contact with the outside world and does not know what Christianity even is.........what about them? Are they doomed for hell over something they do not even have a concept of? Does that sound Christian to you?

My God would not abandon them.

If you don't know, you don't know and I can't believe they would go to hell either. I think ignorance counts for something. You could use the same for babies that die. On the other hand, if you are shown the Light and the Way and you choose not to follow, that is not ignorance-that is to defy.

What if nobody is truly qualified to show you the Light and the Way? Can you claim ignorance? I personally believe God's words are His......who else is qualified to speak for him? Can you really be shown the Light and the Way without God Himself?

The case could be made that we are ALL ignorant in his ways.

Yes, Merc. That is what I keep trying to get at, and no one understand what I'm asking or they don't know how to answer me.

From what you have said, you have chosen not to believe. Ok. That was your choice. My faith believes all will stand before the judgment seat of Christ one day and we will be judged for what we have done, both the good and the bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10) If you don't believe that, fine. Hope there really isn't a God but I would be really scared if I was you.

That is completely non-sensical! How can you CHOOSE to have faith or not??!?!?!?!?

[chri'stina 190]

He gave all man free choice ...

Under that definintion, no He did not.

Take for example:

A jungle tribe in Africa that has had little or no contact with the outside world and does not know what Christianity even is.........what about them? Are they doomed for hell over something they do not even have a concept of? Does that sound Christian to you?

My God would not abandon them.

The bible does deal with this. If you have not actually heard about salvation through Jesus, you would not be held accountable to that. You would be judged on the way you lived your life according to the moral law written naturally in our hearts by God.

But something you said earlier has me confused too...that works are the main factor for going to heaven? But the bible says many times, you are not saved through works alone. As a Christian you are called to do good works, but not because it attains salvation, but because God wants us to try to do good for ppl around us. It's a selfless act, not something that alone would save us. If someone has never heard the gospel, then I do feel they would be judged by God on works and how they lived their lives. But once you know something, you are held accountable to make a decision, in my opinion.

Romans 9:31-33 ....31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble

and a rock that makes them fall,

and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.".....

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This opt out clause sounds suspicious to me......

As for the works....

I understand the words as they were written by man. But....something in your gut has to tell you that belief is not enough in life and in spirit. It's like a blank check for doing whatever the heck you want.

These passages refer to works that people want to do to get into heaven. Doing works for those purpose is not in line with the teaching....as you have pointed out. These are not the works I'm speaking of. I speak of the selfless acts, the ones that are not coerced.....how you live every day.

well I definitely agree, that we shouldn't think we can do whatever we want, just because we aren't saved on works alone. But I am not sure we see eye to eye fully on the issue.

But I also see grace being taken advantage of too by Christians, doing whatever they want that is sinful and them not trying to stop it since they are saved by grace.

[ace13 0]

He gave all man free choice ...

Under that definintion, no He did not.

Take for example:

A jungle tribe in Africa that has had little or no contact with the outside world and does not know what Christianity even is.........what about them? Are they doomed for hell over something they do not even have a concept of? Does that sound Christian to you?

My God would not abandon them.

If you don't know, you don't know and I can't believe they would go to hell either. I think ignorance counts for something. You could use the same for babies that die. On the other hand, if you are shown the Light and the Way and you choose not to follow, that is not ignorance-that is to defy.

What if nobody is truly qualified to show you the Light and the Way? Can you claim ignorance? I personally believe God's words are His......who else is qualified to speak for him? Can you really be shown the Light and the Way without God Himself?

The case could be made that we are ALL ignorant in his ways.

Yes, Merc. That is what I keep trying to get at, and no one understand what I'm asking or they don't know how to answer me.

From what you have said, you have chosen not to believe. Ok. That was your choice. My faith believes all will stand before the judgment seat of Christ one day and we will be judged for what we have done, both the good and the bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10) If you don't believe that, fine. Hope there really isn't a God but I would be really scared if I was you.

That is completely non-sensical! How can you CHOOSE to have faith or not??!?!?!?!?

Free will.

[chri'stina 190]

He gave all man free choice ...

Under that definintion, no He did not.

Take for example:

A jungle tribe in Africa that has had little or no contact with the outside world and does not know what Christianity even is.........what about them? Are they doomed for hell over something they do not even have a concept of? Does that sound Christian to you?

My God would not abandon them.

If you don't know, you don't know and I can't believe they would go to hell either. I think ignorance counts for something. You could use the same for babies that die. On the other hand, if you are shown the Light and the Way and you choose not to follow, that is not ignorance-that is to defy.

What if nobody is truly qualified to show you the Light and the Way? Can you claim ignorance? I personally believe God's words are His......who else is qualified to speak for him? Can you really be shown the Light and the Way without God Himself?

The case could be made that we are ALL ignorant in his ways.

Merc you know I respect you and all...but you are getting very philosophical here. I believe the New Testament really does answer all these hypothetical Q's you are answering. Why would Jesus tell his disciples to go preach the gospel, if no one but God himself was allowed to talk about it? And Paul in the bible went around preaching and many many others. I feel what you are saying is kind of a western world attitude, of not wanting to ever step on anyone's toes or every make anyone upset about your beliefs. The beliefs of the bible themselves, are definitely not going to be liked by everyone. But I feel like you are turning it into a philosophical thing that is getting more and more complex, rather than the simple gospel of Jesus...that he came to die for us, because we could not save ourselves, and that we are to live a life that honors him. If we spend all our time arguing about who should or should not ever mention God to people, that would kind of defeat the purpose of him coming.

Again we have to agree to disagree I guess.

Honestly, I don't mean to offend here. But it sounds like your saying, "just don't think too hard about it."

, I have thought very hard about my beliefs...but these kinds of ideas could be stemmed from not wanting to believe in any absolutes so that no one gets offended by our beliefs.

[CanGal 1]

Honestly, I don't mean to offend here. But it sounds like your saying, "just don't think too hard about it."

Well in all honesty, it isn't hard. Salvation is easy really, if you really genuinely want it. As a human and especially in todays wold we all think there has to be some kind of catch, something that important couln't possibly be that easy without a catch. The thing is, is that there is "no" catch. There is nothing we really have to do. Jesus did it already. But then again you can't just believe and then go do what you want to do. Thats not how it works. Jesus isn't a genie, and he for sure isn't just some hot ticket to get into heaven. If you truly truly believe and accept him, you would want to honor him, live for him. Live like there's only an audience of one, Jesus.

[Jenn! 918]

He gave all man free choice ...

Under that definintion, no He did not.

Take for example:

A jungle tribe in Africa that has had little or no contact with the outside world and does not know what Christianity even is.........what about them? Are they doomed for hell over something they do not even have a concept of? Does that sound Christian to you?

My God would not abandon them.

If you don't know, you don't know and I can't believe they would go to hell either. I think ignorance counts for something. You could use the same for babies that die. On the other hand, if you are shown the Light and the Way and you choose not to follow, that is not ignorance-that is to defy.

What if nobody is truly qualified to show you the Light and the Way? Can you claim ignorance? I personally believe God's words are His......who else is qualified to speak for him? Can you really be shown the Light and the Way without God Himself?

The case could be made that we are ALL ignorant in his ways.

Yes, Merc. That is what I keep trying to get at, and no one understand what I'm asking or they don't know how to answer me.

From what you have said, you have chosen not to believe. Ok. That was your choice. My faith believes all will stand before the judgment seat of Christ one day and we will be judged for what we have done, both the good and the bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10) If you don't believe that, fine. Hope there really isn't a God but I would be really scared if I was you.

That is completely non-sensical! How can you CHOOSE to have faith or not??!?!?!?!?

Free will.

Huh? What you're talking about is SAYING that you believe in something. Sure, I could choose to SAY I believe.

How can your free will control what's really deep down in your heart?

Here's an interesting paper that addresses my questions: http://www.ed.uiuc.edu/EPS/PES-Yearbook/94_docs/GREEN.HTM

[mercuryroad 0]

Merc you know I respect you and all...but you are getting very philosophical here. I believe the New Testament really does answer all these hypothetical Q's you are asking. Why would Jesus tell his disciples to go preach the gospel, if no one but God himself was allowed to talk about it? And Paul in the bible went around preaching and many many others. I feel what you are saying is kind of a western world attitude, of not wanting to ever step on anyone's toes or every make anyone upset about your beliefs. The beliefs of the bible themselves, are definitely not going to be liked by everyone. But I feel like you are turning it into a philosophical thing that is getting more and more complex, rather than the simple gospel of Jesus...that he came to die for us, because we could not save ourselves, and that we are to live a life that honors him. If we spend all our time arguing about who should or should not ever mention God to people, that would kind of defeat the purpose of him coming.

Again we have to agree to disagree I guess.

Religion in itself is philosophy though.....and that's part of the issue and what I am trying to illustrate. There are many ways to interpret words. Only the true definition can be attained from the source. What we are given is the Bible as the guide. The only one that can truly preach is the Lord. Everyone else is just trying to spread a word with their imperfect understanding of it.

"rather than the simple gospel of Jesus...that he came to die for us, because we could not save ourselves, and that we are to live a life that honors him."

If we left it at that.....life could be very peaceful.....but we don't.