"Trump did not Betray the Kurds"

[OriZ 3,157]

6 hours ago, luckytxn said:

Buh bye. Thanks for nothing and Israel is a leech. We give them money to spend 74% back to us? Ridiculous as we could save the middle men and spend 100% here. Obama and Hillary gets us into a mess and Trump is the coward for getting us out. Smh.

 

lol whatever. that's why I don't spend a whole lot of time here anymore, my life is way too busy to spend it arguing with tunnel vision folks like you.

[OriZ 3,157]

3 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

Many folks seem to be making the assumption that Turkey was simply holding back due to the presence of the US SF team, and President Trump told Erdogan he was pulling them out giving the green light to an invasion.  What if the call had Erdogan warning President Trump they were heading in regardless of the US presence? 

It probably did go that way. And that makes it much, much worse. 

[Dashinka 24,628]

9 minutes ago, OriZ said:

It probably did go that way. And that makes it much, much worse. 

So we should have sacrificed some highly trained special forces personnel to allow the issue to erupt in a hot war? 

[Dashinka 24,628]

46 minutes ago, luckytxn said:

I am pretty sure he did and Trump wanted to protect his troops so he pulled them back. We really don't have that many and to stop them we would have needed much more and he probably didn't want to ramp up our presence there. Turkey has always considered the Kurds a mortal enemy and always will. Why should we get in the middle of that?

In my opinion, it should be the European forces here cleaning up this mess since they created it.

[luckytxn 2,264]

7 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

In my opinion, it should be the European forces here cleaning up this mess since they created it.

This. It is a long way from our shores here and nothing here merits protecting our country. If Europe finds they have interests that affects them then let them go in with their fortunes and troops. What difference does it make to the U.S. if people in a far off land want to fight and kill each other? Also why should this merit our attention and have to stay so as to ensure our allies consider us reliable and not when we left Vietnam or Somalia. etc? Seems it is OK to abandon some allies to their fates but others it is not. Let's discuss which allies it is proper to say FU to and which ones not. I am all ears.

 

Also Obama and Hillary put us into this morass why are they not blamed for doing nothing and leaving a mess for others to clean up? Why is Trump being blamed for others chit? Is it because it is Trump and many hate him no matter what?

[OriZ 3,157]

28 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

So we should have sacrificed some highly trained special forces personnel to allow the issue to erupt in a hot war? 

Strength doesn't cause wars, weakness does. "Sacrificed" is an interesting way to put it...there would have been many ways to deter Erdogan from following through if there was will, without it coming to that. And if it came to that, Erdogan would need to know the severity of the consequences would have the potential to topple his regime(someone please tell me, why is this debacle still a member of NATO?). 

 

Backing down because a murderer is threatening you is totally the backwards decision to make, that's a no brainer. You don't need to be afraid of Turkey. Is Israel afraid of Russia? It has attacked in Syria hundreds of times despite the Russians being opposed to it. Has it led to war with Russia? No. Although I promise you if that was the price to pay so be it. Some lines you just can't let others cross or you're pretty much done. A backbone is incredibly important, especially in the Middle East.

Edited October 14, 2019 by OriZ

[Dashinka 24,628]

2 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Strength doesn't cause wars, weakness does. "Sacrificed" is an interesting way to put it...there would have been many ways to deter Erdogan from following through if there was will, without it coming to that. And if it came to that, Erdogan would need to know the severity of the consequences would have the potential to topple his regime(someone please tell me, why is this debacle still a member of NATO?). 

 

Backing down because a murderer is threatening you is totally the backwards decision to make, that's a no brainer. You don't need to be afraid of Turkey. Is Israel afraid of Russia? It has attacked in Syria hundreds of times despite the Russians being opposed to it. Has it led to war with Russia? No. Although I promise you if that was the price to pay so be it. Some lines you just can't let others cross or you're pretty much done. A backbone is incredibly important, especially in the Middle East.

You seem to say these soldier should have been left in place and let Turkey do whatever it wanted.  I agree, Turkey and Erdogan are a joke of a NATO member, but again, these soldiers lives do mean something.  So Trump is left between a rock and a hard place with the media and war hawks hammering him for what he did, but if he had let them stay and the Turks "accidentally" hit or killed them, the leftist outrage would have been deafening.  You also mentioned Israel, I agree, they do not really fear anyone, I expect if it was the US with troops in the area they attack occasionally, they would not care about that either.

[OriZ 3,157]

30 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

You seem to say these soldier should have been left in place and let Turkey do whatever it wanted.  I agree, Turkey and Erdogan are a joke of a NATO member, but again, these soldiers lives do mean something.  So Trump is left between a rock and a hard place with the media and war hawks hammering him for what he did, but if he had let them stay and the Turks "accidentally" hit or killed them, the leftist outrage would have been deafening.  You also mentioned Israel, I agree, they do not really fear anyone, I expect if it was the US with troops in the area they attack occasionally, they would not care about that either.

"left in place" of course. "let turkey do whatever it wanted" umm no. Where are the sanctions? instead Erdogan is invited to the white house next month.  There are far reaching strategic consequences that most are failing/refusing to see. Ask Chamberlain what happened before when they chose to appease a dictator. The bigger picture here is alot more than "but Obama..." The US has lost all credibility, it's toast. The US is essentially going the same way Britain went in the 20th century, while being replaced by Russia/China and their allies. What a wonderful world to live in.

[Dashinka 24,628]

2 minutes ago, OriZ said:

"left in place" of course. "let turkey do whatever it wanted" umm no. Where are the sanctions? instead Erdogan is invited to the white house next month.  There are far reaching strategic consequences that most are failing/refusing to see. Ask Chamberlain what happened before when they chose to appease a dictator. The bigger picture here is alot more than "but Obama..." The US has lost all credibility, it's toast. The US is essentially going the same way Britain went in the 20th century, while being replaced by Russia/China and their allies. What a wonderful world to live in.

Yes, I am very familiar with Chamberlain's appeasement of Germany, if I remember correctly, Russia also made some farcical agreements with Hitler that were also a joke.  As to sanctions, I expect they will be coming, but doesn't the US have a base with nukes in Turkey?  I would be moving those first, and hopefully, the US is completely pulling out of Turkey. 

[luckytxn 2,264]

32 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Yes, I am very familiar with Chamberlain's appeasement of Germany, if I remember correctly, Russia also made some farcical agreements with Hitler that were also a joke.  As to sanctions, I expect they will be coming, but doesn't the US have a base with nukes in Turkey?  I would be moving those first, and hopefully, the US is completely pulling out of Turkey. 

Yeah they need to close bases and bring the troops home everywhere. It is easy for other people to spout off and say the U.S. should spend THEIR money and THEIR troops should die because... Turkey means squat to the U.S. Israel or any country means nothing to the U.S. but every other country wants us to live and die and of course send pallets of money. Most of all send tons and tons of money. Of course when the U.S. sent a observation ship off shore of Israel they bombed and strafed it and killed Americans and have sent spies into our country and even assassination teams to kill whoever they didn't like. Nice friends huh. It is usually enemies that do that type of stuff but of course Israel gets a pass and demands we send lots of money. 

 

No the middle east don't mean squat to America but it does to Israel and Turkey and Saudi Arabia, etc. Why do we have to care for these countries? Americans have gotten tired of fighting in places and left before. Israel kills our troops and spies on us and we call them a friend which is ridiculous. Obama and Hillary gets us into a morass and leaves a mess for others and they are praised but Trump does what the people here want him to do and foreigners call him a coward. Trump is doing what we have done historically which is leave countries to fend for themselves. Also remember it was the Liberals that pulled out of Vietnam and Somalia leaving them to descend into chaos. Bill Clinton was nominated for a Peace prize for pulling out but Trump does and he is castigated. Shows me where peoples minds are at. Obama and Hillary good and Trump is bad and then castigate me for being political. smh

Edited October 14, 2019 by luckytxn

[Dashinka 24,628]

7 minutes ago, luckytxn said:

Yeah they need to close bases and bring the troops home everywhere. It is easy for other people to spout off and say the U.S. should spend THEIR money and THEIR troops should die because... Turkey means squat to the U.S. Israel or any country means nothing to the U.S. but every other country wants us to live and die and of course send pallets of money. Most of all send tons and tons of money. Of course when the U.S. sent a observation ship off shore of Israel they bombed and strafed it and killed Americans and have sent spies into our country and even assassination teams to kill whoever they didn't like. Nice friends huh. It is usually enemies that do that type of stuff but of course Israel gets a pass and demands we send lots of money. 

 

No the middle east don't mean squat to America but it does to Israel and Turkey and Saudi Arabia, etc. Why do we have to care for these countries? Americans have gotten tired of fighting in places and left before. Israel kills our troops and spies on us and we call them a friend which is ridiculous. Obama and Hillary gets us into a morass and leaves a mess for others and they are praised but Trump does what the people here want him to do and foreigners call him a coward. Trump is doing what we have done historically which is leave countries to fend for themselves. Also remember it was the Liberals that pulled out of Vietnam and Somalia leaving them to descend into chaos. Bill Clinton was nominated for a Peace prize for pulling out but Trump does and he is castigated. Shows me where peoples minds are at. Obama and Hillary good and Trump is bad and then castigate me for being political. smh

Yeah, I am not sure if I would go that far, but in this case, yes, Turkey is really no friend of the US considering the Muslim Brotherhood has taken over and has now effectively purged the military of any opposition, but there is a reason to keep a global deployment in certain areas.

[OriZ 3,157]

39 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Yes, I am very familiar with Chamberlain's appeasement of Germany, if I remember correctly, Russia also made some farcical agreements with Hitler that were also a joke.  As to sanctions, I expect they will be coming, but doesn't the US have a base with nukes in Turkey?  I would be moving those first, and hopefully, the US is completely pulling out of Turkey. 

Should have moved them a long time ago. Bowing down to Putin. Backing down from Erdogan. Following up with threats that are clearly empty. That to me is a coward. Look, I really wanted Trump to be a good president and marginally preferred him over Clinton, but he has been losing points with me time after time in the last 3 years and is now running out of them. The axis of evil has only gotten stronger under Trump and is now holding the western world by the balls, and the only one willing to do anything about them anymore is Israel...hey would you look at that, another benefit!

[luckytxn 2,264]

2 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Yeah, I am not sure if I would go that far, but in this case, yes, Turkey is really no friend of the US considering the Muslim Brotherhood has taken over and has now effectively purged the military of any opposition, but there is a reason to keep a global deployment in certain areas.

There is no reason for the U.S. to be deployed there. If it was a concern for anyone then let Europe handle it. They are wealthy and can if they want to do something. 

[OriZ 3,157]

12 minutes ago, luckytxn said:

Yeah they need to close bases and bring the troops home everywhere. It is easy for other people to spout off and say the U.S. should spend THEIR money and THEIR troops should die because... Turkey means squat to the U.S. Israel or any country means nothing to the U.S. but every other country wants us to live and die and of course send pallets of money. Most of all send tons and tons of money. Of course when the U.S. sent a observation ship off shore of Israel they bombed and strafed it and killed Americans and have sent spies into our country and even assassination teams to kill whoever they didn't like. Nice friends huh. It is usually enemies that do that type of stuff but of course Israel gets a pass and demands we send lots of money. 

 

No the middle east don't mean squat to America but it does to Israel and Turkey and Saudi Arabia, etc. Why do we have to care for these countries? Americans have gotten tired of fighting in places and left before. Israel kills our troops and spies on us and we call them a friend which is ridiculous. Obama and Hillary gets us into a morass and leaves a mess for others and they are praised but Trump does what the people here want him to do and foreigners call him a coward. Trump is doing what we have done historically which is leave countries to fend for themselves. Also remember it was the Liberals that pulled out of Vietnam and Somalia leaving them to descend into chaos. Bill Clinton was nominated for a Peace prize for pulling out but Trump does and he is castigated. Shows me where peoples minds are at. Obama and Hillary good and Trump is bad and then castigate me for being political. smh

 

Ahhh at long last cat's outta the bag. I suggest you get your facts straight before you try to spew anti semitic libel.

[luckytxn 2,264]

1 minute ago, OriZ said:

 

Ahhh at long last cat's outta the bag. I suggest you get your facts straight before you try to spew anti semitic libel.

Not anti semitic at all. I am sure you think so though but don't hate Jews or Israel. Nice try at deflection though. I hope Israel and any country the best. America don't need to be living and dying or wasting money over there. We have Americans needing help here and we need to concentrate on our neighbors not far away lands.