Republican Steve King: if not for incest and rape 'would there be any population left?'

[TBoneTX 46,015]

Uh, do not let the generally excellent posts above detract from an eminently bonus-worthy one:

 

[Boris Farage 353]

On 8/24/2019 at 5:27 PM, fip & jim said:

 

Well looky here. A person without a uterus having an opinion about a person that does have a uterus having autonomy over their body. 

 

Vasectomies are reversible. Why not make all men have them? And then, if they are truly ready to be a father, they can undo them. You have problems with this? Yeah, isn't it awful to try to regulate men's bodies this way. 

 

Cue outraged comments from males......

 

Well looky here, a female with an opinion on circumcision that doesn't have a #######.

 

Why shouldn't I have an opinion on abortion, especially if I'm married to the female? All decisions are joint decisions in a marriage, contraception included. As far as regulating women's body, I don't think I said that. What I did say, however, was that women should be more responsible with their bodies.

 

"Cue outraged comments from males......"

 

Which is what you were really after, wasn't it?

[Boris Farage 353]

11 hours ago, fip & jim said:

I was making a point by drawing parallels about how females are actually treated. I get that some of you don't get my English humour. I was showing how ridiculous it would be to treat boys this way. I don't believe in forcibly neutralizing males. I was switching it up to, hopefully, illustrate how women are treated. I'm done with this "debate". 

I'm English, and even I don't get your humour. Best your done with this "debate" though, thank you for the entertainment.

[Ban Hammer 13,501]

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

12 hours ago, fip & jim said:

I was making a point by drawing parallels about how females are actually treated. I get that some of you don't get my English humour. I was showing how ridiculous it would be to treat boys this way. I don't believe in forcibly neutralizing males. I was switching it up to, hopefully, illustrate how women are treated. I'm done with this "debate". 

Perhaps it is because your "humor" is lacking?  No one here is arguing that women shouldn't have abortions, either.  Your experience with "the rest of the evil males trying to take away your autonomous right to refuse the right of a fetus to life" won't really apply in this forum, I promise you.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

On 8/25/2019 at 7:45 AM, fip & jim said:

You're talking about when it's acceptable to abort. That's a different issue. So when is it acceptable for you? It is actually very difficult to get an abortion. It's also not something that is done casually. I don't know of any woman or girl that hasn't suffered greatly from being in a place where they have to consider abortion. 

 

 

Um... do you pay attention to what's happening in America? Georgia, Ohio, Kentucky, Mississippi and Louisiana have passed bills which prohibit abortion after about six weeks - before many people even realize they are pregnant. How was that possible? I'm pretty sure it's to do with some men that passed these laws. That's men keeping women, but not only women as girls get pregnant too, from obtaining safe and legal abortions. 

 

Since you guys have strong opinions about what females can choose happening to them I'd like your opinion about a case in Ohio. An 11 year old girl was repeatedly raped by a 26 year old male and was subsequently pregnant. Under the new Ohian bill the girl would not have access to safe and legal abortion. There are no exceptions for terminations for pregnancies resulting from rape or incest. 

 

Quote

The report noted that the rape was "non-forcible." Police officers found the victim at the home of her alleged rapist, Juan Leon-Gomez, after her family reported she had "left the residence without her mother's permission." That night, Leon-Gomez was arrested.  

 

After the arrest, the police report says the 11-year-old rape victim was counseled on "her delinquent behavior."

Last week, Leon-Gomez was indicted for felony rape and obstruction of official business by the Stark County Court and held on a $1 million bond, according to court documents. He's scheduled to be arraigned May 20.

Ohio's six-week ban isn't slated to go into effect until July, but abortion rights advocates from the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and the Center for Reproductive Rights have vowed to challenge it in court before then.

Even though Ohio joins five other states that have passed their own six-week bans, none have been implemented. They either haven't taken effect yet, as in Georgia and Ohio's case, or they were blocked by a federal judge, like in Mississippi, Kentucky, Iowa and North Dakota.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-abortion-heartbeat-bill-pregnant-11-year-old-rape-victim-barred-abortion-after-new-ohio-abortion-bill-2019-05-13/

 

Nice try, but the case you mentioned isn't affected by the new law (which may well be blocked by lawmakers, as is often the case).

And even if Ohio DOES enforce this law, one would have only to cross a state border and have the procedure done in a state that does allow it (I know, this is quite cost-prohibitive to some).  And to be clear, the Ohio law, which ignores cases of incest and rape, isn't a very fair law.  Hopefully it gets modified to something more realistic.

 

[luckytxn 2,265]

I understand that woman think it is their bodies and what they do with it is their right to do what they want but this is wrong. Our body is not our own anymore as it was considered back then. None of our bodies are by the way. The government owns our bodies and have made laws saying what we can and can't do with our bodies. Yearly there are new laws made that affect what I am allowed to place inside my body and what I am forbidden to do so. (Anyone ever hear of the war on drugs?) And it is not just the war on drugs too but many things are disallowed besides. The Feds have become our babysitters and politicians decide what we can do with our bodies so yes they can make laws that limit what woman can do with theirs as they have done with mens.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

12 hours ago, laylalex said:

Slightly more than 1% of all abortions are performed at 21 weeks or later, though "21 weeks" doesn't necessarily mean that it's late term. "Late term" is an undefined term. The last statistics I have ever seen for this are from 4 years ago. The Guttmacher Institute is a good place to start: https://www.guttmacher.org/evidence-you-can-use/later-abortion

 

This was an article I read earlier this year (not sure if it is behind a paywall as I subscribe -- and no, I am not using my ex's login for this, lol): https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/how-abortion-law-in-new-york-will-change-and-how-it-wont It really stuck with me as someone who has had her own fertility issues -- what if I found out very late along that the baby -- and I would think about it being a baby at that point, not a fetus -- was incompatible with life? I would hope that there would be compassion for whatever decision I made. This part resonated:

 

I'm sorry if I misread you. But when you said you were not okay with women seeking terminations at 7 months, it just didn't read that way to me, since most if not nearly all of these women are having abortions for heartbreaking reasons. Please accept my apologies if we are on the same page. 

As has been reiterated before, the life of the baby and the life of the mother (even the HEALTH of each) needs to be considered.  I think aborting a baby that would suffer in life, when technology exists to know early on this would be the case, should be allowed.  

 

 

I read the 1% stat you mentioned.  And that's great that it's only 1%.  (SB has provided such stats in the past.  But let's examine some OTHER stats that comes from the same source:

 

Quote

WHO HAS ABORTIONS?

• More than half of all U.S. abortion patients in 2014 were in their 20s: Patients aged 20–24 obtained 34% of all abortions, and patients aged 25–29 obtained 27%.⁶
• Twelve percent of abortion patients in 2014 were adolescents: Those aged 18–19 accounted for 8% of all abortions, 15–17-year-olds for 3% and those younger than 15 for 0.2%.⁶
• White patients accounted for 39% of abortion procedures in 2014, blacks for 28%, Hispanics for 25% and patients of other races and ethnicities for 9%.⁶
• Seventeen percent of abortion patients in 2014 identified as mainline Protestant, 13% as evangelical Protestant and 24% as Catholic; 38% reported no religious affiliation and the remaining 8% reported some other affiliation.⁶
• The vast majority (94%) of abortion patients in 2014 identified as heterosexual or straight. Four percent of patients said they were bisexual, while 0.3% identified as homosexual, gay or lesbian and 1% identified as “something else.”⁶
• In 2014, some 46% of all abortion patients had never married and were not cohabiting. However, nearly half were living with a male partner in the month they became pregnant, including 14% who were married and 31% who were cohabiting.⁶
• Fifty-nine percent of abortions in 2014 were obtained by patients who had had at least one birth.⁶
• Some 75% of abortion patients in 2014 were poor or low-income. Twenty-six percent of patients had incomes of 100–199% of the federal poverty level, and 49% had incomes of less than 100% of the federal poverty level ($15,730 for a family of two).*⁶
• The reasons patients gave for having an abortion underscored their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. The three most common reasons—each cited by three-fourths of patients—were concern for or responsibility to other individuals; the inability to afford raising a child; and the belief that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents. Half said they did not want to be a single parent or were having problems with their husband or partner.⁷
• Fifty-one percent of abortion patients in 2014 were using a contraceptive method in the month they became pregnant, most commonly condoms (24%) or a hormonal method (13%).⁸

https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-united-states

More than 84% of abortions were to women 20-30 years of age.  11% were to girls aged 15-19.  so 95% of abortions are requested by mothers aged 15-30.

 

Not that race is being discussed here, but very disproportionate amount of blacks have abortions.  Not interested in religion.

 

Heterosexual?  Well duh.

 

46% were not cohabiting, 31% were (excluding the married ones here for a moment).  So nearly half had no desire to build a family, yet got pregnant and aborted.  Purely a Britney Spears "Oops I did it again" move it appears to me. (this in spite of the claims that deciding to abort is a decision lending itself to mental anguish - I disagree).

 

59% already had at least one child.

 

Predominantly low income at 75%.  Again, probably not a hard decision to make, more of a financial one.  Abortion isn't cheap ($350-950), but raising a child is MUCH more expensive ($200K +) and drawn out.

 

The last two stats go along with the one I paraphrased above.  I think it's pretty clear that the majority of abortions are done because a woman mistakenly got pregnant, and cannot afford the kid.  The ones that happen for health reasons, or late term, are probably very rare.  I'd guess (perhaps SB can pipe in here) that those later-term ones are mostly health-related, either for the mother or the baby, and are likely to happen to mothers that actually wanted to keep the babies.  (Purely conjecture on my part, of course)

 

In 1995, the ratio of abortions to live births was about 34.8%.  This figure dropped in the early 2000s to about 28~29%.  20% in 2012, and down to 11% for 2017 (though one might argue all data is not in for 2017).  Point being... yes, live births have dropped a little (maybe 200-250k per year between 2000 and now), abortions have actually decreased more.  I'm using resident figures from http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html and ignoring occurrences.

 

 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

2 hours ago, Boris Farage said:

 

Well looky here, a female with an opinion on circumcision that doesn't have a #######.

 

Why shouldn't I have an opinion on abortion, especially if I'm married to the female? All decisions are joint decisions in a marriage, contraception included. As far as regulating women's body, I don't think I said that. What I did say, however, was that women should be more responsible with their bodies.

 

"Cue outraged comments from males......"

 

Which is what you were really after, wasn't it?

 

 

But that is quite often the nature of CEHST.  It ebbs and flows, but overall, the emotional issues are the most debated.

[Boris Farage 353]

1 minute ago, ALFKAD said:

 

 

But that is quite often the nature of CEHST.  It ebbs and flows, but overall, the emotional issues are the most debated.

Debated is fine, I quite like a vigorous back and forth. Throwing a tantrum because a man has an opinion about lady bits, then storming off in a huff because the reaction was exactly what the person was trying to evoke... there's a word commonly used on the internet for that, but I've been issued a warning for outright saying it, so I'll just leave the trip-trapping for somebody else.

[yuna628 9,702]

2 hours ago, Ban Hammer said:

I know you're trying to be cute... but this is quite offensive to those women and girls who have had to have abortions in cases of rape, incest, and those that have made the anguishing choice to abort because of severe defects from which the baby would never recover. It's also offensive in a way to those women who have chosen to keep a baby instead of following a recommendation and having the child suffer an agonizing death from those defects after birth. Most women take abortion very seriously.

1 hour ago, luckytxn said:

I understand that woman think it is their bodies and what they do with it is their right to do what they want but this is wrong. Our body is not our own anymore as it was considered back then. None of our bodies are by the way. The government owns our bodies and have made laws saying what we can and can't do with our bodies. Yearly there are new laws made that affect what I am allowed to place inside my body and what I am forbidden to do so. (Anyone ever hear of the war on drugs?) And it is not just the war on drugs too but many things are disallowed besides. The Feds have become our babysitters and politicians decide what we can do with our bodies so yes they can make laws that limit what woman can do with theirs as they have done with mens.

Our body is our own no matter what the government tells us. The concept that it is owned by the government flies in the face of the establishment of freedom and liberty.

[laylalex 7,300]

3 hours ago, Boris Farage said:

 

Well looky here, a female with an opinion on circumcision that doesn't have a #######.

 

Why shouldn't I have an opinion on abortion, especially if I'm married to the female? All decisions are joint decisions in a marriage, contraception included. As far as regulating women's body, I don't think I said that. What I did say, however, was that women should be more responsible with their bodies.

 

"Cue outraged comments from males......"

 

Which is what you were really after, wasn't it?

You know, @fip & jim was just trying to draw attention to how absurd it is that it's WOMEN'S bodies that are so tightly controlled, where men's just aren't. No one forces a parent to circumcise their son, or can stop a vasectomy at any point in a man's life (though it looks like some doctors try). It is about control of women, ultimately, and their ability to do something legal and safe with their bodies. 

 

There are good reasons a woman might not tell her husband. I've mentioned a few before. Are they right for every marriage? No. BC and abortion should be discussed between spouses but ultimately the woman gets the final say. Sorry. 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

13 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I know you're trying to be cute... but this is quite offensive to those women and girls who have had to have abortions in cases of rape, incest, and those that have made the anguishing choice to abort because of severe defects from which the baby would never recover. It's also offensive in a way to those women who have chosen to keep a baby instead of following a recommendation and having the child suffer an agonizing death from those defects after birth. Most women take abortion very seriously.

I disagree.  The relatively few women who have an abortion against their will or in cases of rape/incest know they are not counted among those who choose to use abortion as birth control.  The same way I don't get offended when someone posts a meme about mass shootings, even though I own a gun.  It's apples and kangaroos IMO.  

[Boris Farage 353]

8 minutes ago, laylalex said:

You know, @fip & jim was just trying to draw attention to how absurd it is that it's WOMEN'S bodies that are so tightly controlled, where men's just aren't.

I say again, it's not the men who are having abortions.

 

This is like saying why do you have to have a license to drive a car, but you don't have to have one to walk? It's apples and oranges.

[luckytxn 2,265]

14 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I know you're trying to be cute... but this is quite offensive to those women and girls who have had to have abortions in cases of rape, incest, and those that have made the anguishing choice to abort because of severe defects from which the baby would never recover. It's also offensive in a way to those women who have chosen to keep a baby instead of following a recommendation and having the child suffer an agonizing death from those defects after birth. Most women take abortion very seriously.

Our body is our own no matter what the government tells us. The concept that it is owned by the government flies in the face of the establishment of freedom and liberty.

I am not trying to be cute and resent you saying that ### it is totally false. You may disagree with it and that is fine as most would but I am positive I am right. The government constantly makes and updates laws saying what I am allowed to do with my body and what I can and can't do with said body. Even in the privacy of my own home they say what I can and can't do. I could care less if woman are offended that they have to follow the same laws that I have to and if the government is allowed to tell woman the same.