Texas inmate wants to tell a joke at his execution

[William33 110]

Whatever.

Yep, that's about what I think of your assertion that the DP is a deterrent. You can't prove it.

I congratulate you on such an intelligent and witty response, by the way.

Obviously, you forgot the original line of thinking on this thread. Some, including you, originally asserted that the DP is not a deterrent. I asked you and others to back it up. To date, that has not happened.

So, before you turn the tables, step up and back your original assertions. Then we can dialogue about it. OK?

Are you doing some selective reading here? A lot of info has been posted to exactly that effect. You don't have to agree with it and I'll grant the research is not without its flaws.

I think its time you backed up your assertions. Would only be polite....

From your own link:

Capital Punishment and Homicide: Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Capital Punishment and Homicide

Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Skeptical Enquirer Magazine, July 2004

Does executing murderers cut the homicide rate or not? Comparative studies show there is no effect. Econometric models, in contrast, show a mixture of results. Why the difference? And which is the more reliable method?

By Ted Goertzel

I have inquired for most of my adult life about studies that might show that the death penalty is a deterrent, and I have not seen any research that would substantiate that point.

-- Attorney General Janet Reno, January 20, 2000

All of the scientifically valid statistical studies—those that examine a period of years, and control for national trends—consistently show that capital punishment is a substantial deterrent.

-- Senator Orrin Hatch, October 16, 2002

Hatch suggests capital punishment is a "substantial" deterrent.

Conversely, Reno says the opposite.

This is subjective matter to the core, and that was my point from the beginning.

I feel strongly one way, you and others are opposite. Is that wrong? No, of course not.

For example, look at all the threads here on VJ, related to: illegal immigration, immigration fraud, taxes, Iraq and so forth.

You have two basic sides to every scenario. I only ask that everyone analyze both positions.

Given the fact that evidence either way, does not exist definitively. That explains why these issues have been, and will be debated beyond our lifetime.

Regards to all participants here.

As I said - selective reading going on here.

Seems that is the case with you. You always hold your position without fail and fall short of seeing both sides. You must be an educator....No real world experience. I get paid to see reality, and get paid well for such. Cheers.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Whatever.

Yep, that's about what I think of your assertion that the DP is a deterrent. You can't prove it.

I congratulate you on such an intelligent and witty response, by the way.

Obviously, you forgot the original line of thinking on this thread. Some, including you, originally asserted that the DP is not a deterrent. I asked you and others to back it up. To date, that has not happened.

So, before you turn the tables, step up and back your original assertions. Then we can dialogue about it. OK?

Are you doing some selective reading here? A lot of info has been posted to exactly that effect. You don't have to agree with it and I'll grant the research is not without its flaws.

I think its time you backed up your assertions. Would only be polite....

From your own link:

Capital Punishment and Homicide: Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Capital Punishment and Homicide

Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Skeptical Enquirer Magazine, July 2004

Does executing murderers cut the homicide rate or not? Comparative studies show there is no effect. Econometric models, in contrast, show a mixture of results. Why the difference? And which is the more reliable method?

By Ted Goertzel

I have inquired for most of my adult life about studies that might show that the death penalty is a deterrent, and I have not seen any research that would substantiate that point.

-- Attorney General Janet Reno, January 20, 2000

All of the scientifically valid statistical studies—those that examine a period of years, and control for national trends—consistently show that capital punishment is a substantial deterrent.

-- Senator Orrin Hatch, October 16, 2002

Hatch suggests capital punishment is a "substantial" deterrent.

Conversely, Reno says the opposite.

This is subjective matter to the core, and that was my point from the beginning.

I feel strongly one way, you and others are opposite. Is that wrong? No, of course not.

For example, look at all the threads here on VJ, related to: illegal immigration, immigration fraud, taxes, Iraq and so forth.

You have two basic sides to every scenario. I only ask that everyone analyze both positions.

Given the fact that evidence either way, does not exist definitively. That explains why these issues have been, and will be debated beyond our lifetime.

Regards to all participants here.

As I said - selective reading going on here.

Seems that is the case with you. You always hold your position without fail and fall short of seeing both sides. You must be an educator....No real world experience. I get paid to see reality, and get paid well for such. Cheers.

Straight to the personal attack eh. How original. Do me a favour - I don't care how much you get paid or to do what. Making grandiose unsubstantiated claims about your background and experience is a crock and amounts to ####### stroking self-promotion. All mouth and no trousers.

Lets back up here and look at who has offered precisely nothing in this thread, shooting down the opinions of others, while offering none of their own.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm still appalled at the District Attorney who tried to have a schizophrenic death row inmate medicated to make him sane enough to execute, because the laws at the time (in, I think - Florida) forbade execution of people who are deemed mentally incompetant.

I stand corrected - it was Arkansas. And they did execute the guy.

Arkansas moves toward executing drugged man

Condemned Prisoner Treated and Executed

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/dll/singleton_8circ2.htm

[William33 110]

Whatever.

Yep, that's about what I think of your assertion that the DP is a deterrent. You can't prove it.

I congratulate you on such an intelligent and witty response, by the way.

Obviously, you forgot the original line of thinking on this thread. Some, including you, originally asserted that the DP is not a deterrent. I asked you and others to back it up. To date, that has not happened.

So, before you turn the tables, step up and back your original assertions. Then we can dialogue about it. OK?

Are you doing some selective reading here? A lot of info has been posted to exactly that effect. You don't have to agree with it and I'll grant the research is not without its flaws.

I think its time you backed up your assertions. Would only be polite....

From your own link:

Capital Punishment and Homicide: Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Capital Punishment and Homicide

Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Skeptical Enquirer Magazine, July 2004

Does executing murderers cut the homicide rate or not? Comparative studies show there is no effect. Econometric models, in contrast, show a mixture of results. Why the difference? And which is the more reliable method?

By Ted Goertzel

I have inquired for most of my adult life about studies that might show that the death penalty is a deterrent, and I have not seen any research that would substantiate that point.

-- Attorney General Janet Reno, January 20, 2000

All of the scientifically valid statistical studies—those that examine a period of years, and control for national trends—consistently show that capital punishment is a substantial deterrent.

-- Senator Orrin Hatch, October 16, 2002

Hatch suggests capital punishment is a "substantial" deterrent.

Conversely, Reno says the opposite.

This is subjective matter to the core, and that was my point from the beginning.

I feel strongly one way, you and others are opposite. Is that wrong? No, of course not.

For example, look at all the threads here on VJ, related to: illegal immigration, immigration fraud, taxes, Iraq and so forth.

You have two basic sides to every scenario. I only ask that everyone analyze both positions.

Given the fact that evidence either way, does not exist definitively. That explains why these issues have been, and will be debated beyond our lifetime.

Regards to all participants here.

As I said - selective reading going on here.

Seems that is the case with you. You always hold your position without fail and fall short of seeing both sides. You must be an educator....No real world experience. I get paid to see reality, and get paid well for such. Cheers.

Straight to the personal attack eh. How original. Do me a favour - I don't care how much you get paid or to do what. Making grandiose unsubstantiated claims about your background and experience is a crock and amounts to ####### stroking self-promotion. All mouth and no trousers.

Lets back up here and look at who has offered precisely nothing in this thread, shooting down the opinions of others, while offering none of their own.

Typical response. And what have you offered exactly? more conjecture? This is a waste of time, as many others have pointed out in debating with you. Later. Oh, and you are welcome to the last word.

[Ban Hammer 13,275]

When I look at these statistics I wonder how you can use any state to state numbers in the U.S as means to prove or disprove the affectiveness of the Death Penalty as a deterant.

Looking at the States with the top 10 crime rates in this link I do see that each of them does in fact have the Death Penalty on their books. But look at the number of executions each state has actually performed SINCE 1976 compared to the murders committed in just 2005.

Executions since 1976---Murders 2005

Louisiana-27---399---6.7%

Maryland-5---551---.907%

Nevada-12---205---5.85%

Alabama-35---326---10.7%

Arizona-22---440---5%

New Mexico-1---133---.75%

South Carolina-36---312---11.5%

Mississippi-8---163---4.9%

Tennessee-3---428---.700%

California-13---2503---.519%

How do you determine whether or not the death penalty is affective if it is hardly even used? I wonder if the people who commit the murders even know whether or not there is a death penalty in their state.

edited to add the percentage of executions to date compared to murders in 2005. looks like you got a pretty good chance at getting away with it in cali....

Edited June 5, 2007 by charlesandnessa

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Whatever.

Yep, that's about what I think of your assertion that the DP is a deterrent. You can't prove it.

I congratulate you on such an intelligent and witty response, by the way.

Obviously, you forgot the original line of thinking on this thread. Some, including you, originally asserted that the DP is not a deterrent. I asked you and others to back it up. To date, that has not happened.

So, before you turn the tables, step up and back your original assertions. Then we can dialogue about it. OK?

Are you doing some selective reading here? A lot of info has been posted to exactly that effect. You don't have to agree with it and I'll grant the research is not without its flaws.

I think its time you backed up your assertions. Would only be polite....

From your own link:

Capital Punishment and Homicide: Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Capital Punishment and Homicide

Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Skeptical Enquirer Magazine, July 2004

Does executing murderers cut the homicide rate or not? Comparative studies show there is no effect. Econometric models, in contrast, show a mixture of results. Why the difference? And which is the more reliable method?

By Ted Goertzel

I have inquired for most of my adult life about studies that might show that the death penalty is a deterrent, and I have not seen any research that would substantiate that point.

-- Attorney General Janet Reno, January 20, 2000

All of the scientifically valid statistical studies—those that examine a period of years, and control for national trends—consistently show that capital punishment is a substantial deterrent.

-- Senator Orrin Hatch, October 16, 2002

Hatch suggests capital punishment is a "substantial" deterrent.

Conversely, Reno says the opposite.

This is subjective matter to the core, and that was my point from the beginning.

I feel strongly one way, you and others are opposite. Is that wrong? No, of course not.

For example, look at all the threads here on VJ, related to: illegal immigration, immigration fraud, taxes, Iraq and so forth.

You have two basic sides to every scenario. I only ask that everyone analyze both positions.

Given the fact that evidence either way, does not exist definitively. That explains why these issues have been, and will be debated beyond our lifetime.

Regards to all participants here.

As I said - selective reading going on here.

Seems that is the case with you. You always hold your position without fail and fall short of seeing both sides. You must be an educator....No real world experience. I get paid to see reality, and get paid well for such. Cheers.

Straight to the personal attack eh. How original. Do me a favour - I don't care how much you get paid or to do what. Making grandiose unsubstantiated claims about your background and experience is a crock and amounts to ####### stroking self-promotion. All mouth and no trousers.

Lets back up here and look at who has offered precisely nothing in this thread, shooting down the opinions of others, while offering none of their own.

Typical response. And what have you offered exactly? more conjecture? This is a waste of time, as many others have pointed out in debating with you. Later. Oh, and you are welcome to the last word.

Typical response for the typical response eh? Rubbishing the topic - not seen that before. I thought you had this well paid perspective on "reality"...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

BTW - if anyone clicked on more than one link on that page they might have seen a whole bunch of scholarship on the deterrence issue. Its pretty comprehensive.

Facts about Deterrence and the Death Penalty

[Ban Hammer 13,275]

BTW - if anyone clicked on more than one link on that page they might have seen a whole bunch of scholarship on the deterrence issue. Its pretty comprehensive.

Facts about Deterrence and the Death Penalty

i'm sure that any place named "death penalty information center" is unbiased.......

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

BTW - if anyone clicked on more than one link on that page they might have seen a whole bunch of scholarship on the deterrence issue. Its pretty comprehensive.

Facts about Deterrence and the Death Penalty

i'm sure that any place named "death penalty information center" is unbiased.......

Well its easy to say so isn't it? Rather more effort to actually substantiate a position with conflicting evidence.

That site links to numerous studies conducted by many different people and institutions. William seems to be implying that I must be wrong simply because he jump around the website and cherry pick a couple of arbitrary quotes (as if those equal "balance") and not even look at any of the academic studies. As far as that goes - it's hardly a profound statement that on many issues "absolute truth" doesn't exist.

But again its easy for you (and he) to say so - rather than actually find significant conflicting evidence to back up a position that what I've said about the death penalty is untrue.

Evidence has been posted (as he requested). He just doesn't want to address it.

[Ban Hammer 13,275]

i'm sure that any place named "death penalty information center" is unbiased.......

Well its easy to say so isn't it? Rather more effort to actually substantiate a position with conflicting evidence.

That site links to numerous studies conducted by many different people and institutions. William seems to be implying that I must be wrong simply because he jump around the website and cherry pick a couple of arbitrary quotes (as if those equal "balance") and not even look at any of the academic studies. As far as that goes - it's hardly a profound statement that on many issues "absolute truth" doesn't exist.

But again its easy for you (and he) to say so - rather than actually find significant conflicting evidence to back up a position that what I've said about the death penalty is untrue.

Evidence has been posted (as he requested). He just doesn't want to address it.

now you know how some of us feel about your bashing of fox news and other sources

[natty bumppo 293]

Whatever.

Yep, that's about what I think of your assertion that the DP is a deterrent. You can't prove it.

I congratulate you on such an intelligent and witty response, by the way.

Obviously, you forgot the original line of thinking on this thread. Some, including you, originally asserted that the DP is not a deterrent. I asked you and others to back it up. To date, that has not happened.

So, before you turn the tables, step up and back your original assertions. Then we can dialogue about it. OK?

Are you doing some selective reading here? A lot of info has been posted to exactly that effect. You don't have to agree with it and I'll grant the research is not without its flaws.

I think its time you backed up your assertions. Would only be polite....

From your own link:

Capital Punishment and Homicide: Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Capital Punishment and Homicide

Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Skeptical Enquirer Magazine, July 2004

Does executing murderers cut the homicide rate or not? Comparative studies show there is no effect. Econometric models, in contrast, show a mixture of results. Why the difference? And which is the more reliable method?

By Ted Goertzel

I have inquired for most of my adult life about studies that might show that the death penalty is a deterrent, and I have not seen any research that would substantiate that point.

-- Attorney General Janet Reno, January 20, 2000

All of the scientifically valid statistical studies—those that examine a period of years, and control for national trends—consistently show that capital punishment is a substantial deterrent.

-- Senator Orrin Hatch, October 16, 2002

Hatch suggests capital punishment is a "substantial" deterrent.

Conversely, Reno says the opposite.

This is subjective matter to the core, and that was my point from the beginning.

I feel strongly one way, you and others are opposite. Is that wrong? No, of course not.

For example, look at all the threads here on VJ, related to: illegal immigration, immigration fraud, taxes, Iraq and so forth.

You have two basic sides to every scenario. I only ask that everyone analyze both positions.

Given the fact that evidence either way, does not exist definitively. That explains why these issues have been, and will be debated beyond our lifetime.

Regards to all participants here.

wow ... a thought from "fry'em and shoot'em Reno" ....

[homesick_american 1]

Straight to the personal attack eh. How original. Do me a favour - I don't care how much you get paid or to do what. Making grandiose unsubstantiated claims about your background and experience is a crock and amounts to ####### stroking self-promotion. All mouth and no trousers.

Lets back up here and look at who has offered precisely nothing in this thread, shooting down the opinions of others, while offering none of their own.

PWND! :thumbs: :thumbs:

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

i'm sure that any place named "death penalty information center" is unbiased.......

Well its easy to say so isn't it? Rather more effort to actually substantiate a position with conflicting evidence.

That site links to numerous studies conducted by many different people and institutions. William seems to be implying that I must be wrong simply because he jump around the website and cherry pick a couple of arbitrary quotes (as if those equal "balance") and not even look at any of the academic studies. As far as that goes - it's hardly a profound statement that on many issues "absolute truth" doesn't exist.

But again its easy for you (and he) to say so - rather than actually find significant conflicting evidence to back up a position that what I've said about the death penalty is untrue.

Evidence has been posted (as he requested). He just doesn't want to address it.

now you know how some of us feel about your bashing of fox news and other sources

That's a bit of a stretch - but ok

I guess if you're not interested in discussing the topic in any detailed way you need something to get one over on me.

[dalegg 143]

When I look at these statistics I wonder how you can use any state to state numbers in the U.S as means to prove or disprove the affectiveness of the Death Penalty as a deterant.

Looking at the States with the top 10 crime rates in this link I do see that each of them does in fact have the Death Penalty on their books. But look at the number of executions each state has actually performed SINCE 1976 compared to the murders committed in just 2005.

Executions since 1976---Murders 2005

Louisiana-27---399---6.7%

Maryland-5---551---.907%

Nevada-12---205---5.85%

Alabama-35---326---10.7%

Arizona-22---440---5%

New Mexico-1---133---.75%

South Carolina-36---312---11.5%

Mississippi-8---163---4.9%

Tennessee-3---428---.700%

California-13---2503---.519%

How do you determine whether or not the death penalty is affective if it is hardly even used? I wonder if the people who commit the murders even know whether or not there is a death penalty in their state.

edited to add the percentage of executions to date compared to murders in 2005. looks like you got a pretty good chance at getting away with it in cali....

Now imagine changing the number of murders in from just last year to the number of murders committed in each of those states to the last 30 years and run the percentage.

Here is some data that might actually prove that the Death Penalty is a deterant.

As a percentage of the persons on Death Row since 1976, it appears you are much more likely to end up there if your victim is white Source

However, as a percentage of homicide victims in California, white people represent the lowest actual numbers. Source 1 source 2.

So, based on this, you could make the argument that the fact that you are more likely to end up on Death Row if you murder a white person in California has prevented more murders agains white people.

Edited June 5, 2007 by dalegg

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

While admittedly statistics can be distorted to fit pre-fabricated conclusions, in this case I think the lack of “conclusive” evidence would tend to support the one interpretation (i.e. no deterrent) over the other (real, substantive deterrent). You even hinted as much in your when you said:

How do you determine whether or not the death penalty is affective if it is hardly even used? I wonder if the people who commit the murders even know whether or not there is a death penalty in their state.

What we have here is a consensus, albeit from a number of different angles, that support a specific interpretation. I'm also more inclined to believe someone who has actually done some sort of research on the subject (incidentally - reputable academics who do this kind of work openly cite the flaws of their methodology) rather than a few disparate quotes by politicians.

The question of whether the death penalty is generally a deterrant isn't something that can be realistically determined, as we can only work within the confines of how it is applied in the US (which is all that statistical & qualitative studies are able to do).

Edited June 5, 2007 by erekose