Texas inmate wants to tell a joke at his execution

[William33 110]

Your perception at work here.

More like reality.

Once again, this is a global perspective of capital punishment, with respect to deterrent value.

I know Harris County quite well, that ain't global.

So, when are you going to actually ante up and provide the smoking gun for your theory that the death penalty is a deterrent? Nothing from the Heritage Foundation, please.

Bear in mind, I am not in the group that needs to be convinced.

[homesick_american 1]

Bear in mind, I am not in the group that needs to be convinced.

ROFLMAO!

That about sums it up in a nutshell. Can't prove it, can you? If you're going to make an assertion like that, I think you should be ready to back it up with hard evidence. Just saying that you're convinced and I'm not is in no way good enough, and I'm calling you out on it.

Basically, put up or shut up.

[William33 110]

Bear in mind, I am not in the group that needs to be convinced.

ROFLMAO!

That about sums it up in a nutshell. Can't prove it, can you? If you're going to make an assertion like that, I think you should be ready to back it up with hard evidence. Just saying that you're convinced and I'm not is in no way good enough, and I'm calling you out on it.

Basically, put up or shut up.

Whatever.

[peejay 327]

So, when are you going to actually ante up and provide the smoking gun for your theory that the death penalty is a deterrent? Nothing from the Heritage Foundation, please.

If there is even a deterent effect, it is probably miniscule. It might deter some people, but how would you know? It's not something potential killers would discuss in daily conversation.

No...the death penalty is first and foremost a punishment. One that my hometown of Houston / Harris county assesses frequently to the numerous bad actors that run amuck in our city.

Punishment can be a deterent, but it is not the primary goal. You punish the bad actor for his crimes. If it deters his amigos, so much the better.

[dalegg 143]

It all comes down to perception. There is no logical way to accurately validate whether or not capital punishment is a viable deterrent, domestically or internationally. There are just too many variables to consider.

In my world, capital punishment is proper justice for certain crimes. Many will fall on the other side of the fence with this issue. I am ok with that too.

I disagree...I think it's extremely obvious that the death penalty is not a deterrent. Some of America's most violent cities/towns are in my home state of Texas, which has virtually an assembly-line approach to capital punishment. Houston is extremely violent and Harris County sends more prisoners to death row than any other county in Texas. The last thing on a murderer's mind when he/she pulls the trigger is, "Boy, I hope they don't execute me for this."

As far as whether or not it's a deterrent, I suppose you can look at the countries where there is a real fear of the death penalty and then look at their homicide rates. Somethings keeping Iran in line there! Maybe the fear of being "put to sleep" just isn't doing it for some people. Do I want to become like Saudi Arabia? No. No I don't. A bit too swift for me, but if someone doesn't care about the life of another human being, AND even their own life doesn't come into consideration before destroying that of anothers and their family, then what is the use in keeping them around?

[homesick_american 1]

Whatever.

Yep, that's about what I think of your assertion that the DP is a deterrent. You can't prove it.

I congratulate you on such an intelligent and witty response, by the way.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

...then what is the use in keeping them around?

The value of another persons life should never be set by the opinions of others.

[homesick_american 1]

As far as whether or not it's a deterrent, I suppose you can look at the countries where there is a real fear of the death penalty and then look at their homicide rates. Somethings keeping Iran in line there! Maybe the fear of being "put to sleep" just isn't doing it for some people. Do I want to become like Saudi Arabia? No. No I don't. A bit too swift for me, but if someone doesn't care about the life of another human being, AND even their own life doesn't come into consideration before destroying that of anothers and their family, then what is the use in keeping them around?

You can't compare the United States to Saudi Arabia or Iran...not in this way, not in any way. Violent crime is not an area where you can find parallels between American and Islamic culture.

[Alex+R 0]

As far as whether or not it's a deterrent, I suppose you can look at the countries where there is a real fear of the death penalty and then look at their homicide rates. Somethings keeping Iran in line there! Maybe the fear of being "put to sleep" just isn't doing it for some people. Do I want to become like Saudi Arabia? No. No I don't. A bit too swift for me, but if someone doesn't care about the life of another human being, AND even their own life doesn't come into consideration before destroying that of anothers and their family, then what is the use in keeping them around?

You can't compare the United States to Saudi Arabia or Iran...not in this way, not in any way. Violent crime is not an area where you can find parallels between American and Islamic culture.

Besides which, someone already posted a graph showing that homicide rates are higher in states with the death penalty than in those without. That is way more convincing than comparing the US to Saudi Arabia, but Jenn already pointed out the flaw in that type of statistic, so really neither of these make a lot of sense.

[William33 110]

Whatever.

Yep, that's about what I think of your assertion that the DP is a deterrent. You can't prove it.

I congratulate you on such an intelligent and witty response, by the way.

Obviously, you forgot the original line of thinking on this thread. Some, including you, originally asserted that the DP is not a deterrent. I asked you and others to back it up. To date, that has not happened.

So, before you turn the tables, step up and back your original assertions. Then we can dialogue about it. OK?

[dalegg 143]

As far as whether or not it's a deterrent, I suppose you can look at the countries where there is a real fear of the death penalty and then look at their homicide rates. Somethings keeping Iran in line there! Maybe the fear of being "put to sleep" just isn't doing it for some people. Do I want to become like Saudi Arabia? No. No I don't. A bit too swift for me, but if someone doesn't care about the life of another human being, AND even their own life doesn't come into consideration before destroying that of anothers and their family, then what is the use in keeping them around?

You can't compare the United States to Saudi Arabia or Iran...not in this way, not in any way. Violent crime is not an area where you can find parallels between American and Islamic culture.

Besides which, someone already posted a graph showing that homicide rates are higher in states with the death penalty than in those without. That is way more convincing than comparing the US to Saudi Arabia, but Jenn already pointed out the flaw in that type of statistic, so really neither of these make a lot of sense.

If you are going to talk about the Death Penalty being a deterant in the U.S against Homicides, then absolutely we are certainly not getting our money's worth. In 2005 there were 14,860 murders committed in the U.S and last year there were only 53 executions. Those are pretty good odds so it's no wonder it doesn't come to mind.

Take Singapore for example though. 8 executions last year and only 17 murders. Now thems pretty good odds. Could have something to do with their low crime rates.

Edited June 5, 2007 by dalegg

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Whatever.

Yep, that's about what I think of your assertion that the DP is a deterrent. You can't prove it.

I congratulate you on such an intelligent and witty response, by the way.

Obviously, you forgot the original line of thinking on this thread. Some, including you, originally asserted that the DP is not a deterrent. I asked you and others to back it up. To date, that has not happened.

So, before you turn the tables, step up and back your original assertions. Then we can dialogue about it. OK?

Are you doing some selective reading here? A lot of info has been posted to exactly that effect. You don't have to agree with it and I'll grant the research is not without its flaws.

I think its time you backed up your assertions. Would only be polite....

[William33 110]

Whatever.

Yep, that's about what I think of your assertion that the DP is a deterrent. You can't prove it.

I congratulate you on such an intelligent and witty response, by the way.

Obviously, you forgot the original line of thinking on this thread. Some, including you, originally asserted that the DP is not a deterrent. I asked you and others to back it up. To date, that has not happened.

So, before you turn the tables, step up and back your original assertions. Then we can dialogue about it. OK?

Are you doing some selective reading here? A lot of info has been posted to exactly that effect. You don't have to agree with it and I'll grant the research is not without its flaws.

I think its time you backed up your assertions. Would only be polite....

From your own link:

Capital Punishment and Homicide: Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Capital Punishment and Homicide

Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Skeptical Enquirer Magazine, July 2004

Does executing murderers cut the homicide rate or not? Comparative studies show there is no effect. Econometric models, in contrast, show a mixture of results. Why the difference? And which is the more reliable method?

By Ted Goertzel

I have inquired for most of my adult life about studies that might show that the death penalty is a deterrent, and I have not seen any research that would substantiate that point.

-- Attorney General Janet Reno, January 20, 2000

All of the scientifically valid statistical studies—those that examine a period of years, and control for national trends—consistently show that capital punishment is a substantial deterrent.

-- Senator Orrin Hatch, October 16, 2002

Hatch suggests capital punishment is a "substantial" deterrent.

Conversely, Reno says the opposite.

This is subjective matter to the core, and that was my point from the beginning.

I feel strongly one way, you and others are opposite. Is that wrong? No, of course not.

For example, look at all the threads here on VJ, related to: illegal immigration, immigration fraud, taxes, Iraq and so forth.

You have two basic sides to every scenario. I only ask that everyone analyze both positions.

Given the fact that evidence either way, does not exist definitively. That explains why these issues have been, and will be debated beyond our lifetime.

Regards to all participants here.

[dalegg 143]

What specifically? That the DP is not a deterrent, or your implied assertion that countries like China, which have draconian laws and punishments have a lower capital crime rates?

Present evidence to support your assertion that the death penalty is not a deterrent.

On China and India, my point is that there are insufficient data points to analyze.

Knock yourself out.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.ph...=12&did=167

When I look at these statistics I wonder how you can use any state to state numbers in the U.S as means to prove or disprove the affectiveness of the Death Penalty as a deterant.

Looking at the States with the top 10 crime rates in this link I do see that each of them does in fact have the Death Penalty on their books. But look at the number of executions each state has actually performed SINCE 1976 compared to the murders committed in just 2005.

Executions since 1976---Murders 2005

Louisiana-27---399

Maryland-5---551

Nevada-12---205

Alabama-35---326

Arizona-22---440

New Mexico-1---133

South Carolina-36---312

Mississippi-8---163

Tennessee-3---428

California-13---2503

How do you determine whether or not the death penalty is affective if it is hardly even used? I wonder if the people who commit the murders even know whether or not there is a death penalty in their state.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Whatever.

Yep, that's about what I think of your assertion that the DP is a deterrent. You can't prove it.

I congratulate you on such an intelligent and witty response, by the way.

Obviously, you forgot the original line of thinking on this thread. Some, including you, originally asserted that the DP is not a deterrent. I asked you and others to back it up. To date, that has not happened.

So, before you turn the tables, step up and back your original assertions. Then we can dialogue about it. OK?

Are you doing some selective reading here? A lot of info has been posted to exactly that effect. You don't have to agree with it and I'll grant the research is not without its flaws.

I think its time you backed up your assertions. Would only be polite....

From your own link:

Capital Punishment and Homicide: Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Capital Punishment and Homicide

Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions

Skeptical Enquirer Magazine, July 2004

Does executing murderers cut the homicide rate or not? Comparative studies show there is no effect. Econometric models, in contrast, show a mixture of results. Why the difference? And which is the more reliable method?

By Ted Goertzel

I have inquired for most of my adult life about studies that might show that the death penalty is a deterrent, and I have not seen any research that would substantiate that point.

-- Attorney General Janet Reno, January 20, 2000

All of the scientifically valid statistical studies—those that examine a period of years, and control for national trends—consistently show that capital punishment is a substantial deterrent.

-- Senator Orrin Hatch, October 16, 2002

Hatch suggests capital punishment is a "substantial" deterrent.

Conversely, Reno says the opposite.

This is subjective matter to the core, and that was my point from the beginning.

I feel strongly one way, you and others are opposite. Is that wrong? No, of course not.

For example, look at all the threads here on VJ, related to: illegal immigration, immigration fraud, taxes, Iraq and so forth.

You have two basic sides to every scenario. I only ask that everyone analyze both positions.

Given the fact that evidence either way, does not exist definitively. That explains why these issues have been, and will be debated beyond our lifetime.

Regards to all participants here.

As I said - selective reading going on here.