I-751 evidence - bank statement question

[Crazy Cat 41,814]

9 minutes ago, afrocraft said:

IMHO, it's just ridiculous to send in all bank statements for 3+ years. There is simply no added evidentiary value in doing so, and it shows a misunderstanding of the rationale for sending them at all.

I disagree.......the evidence of "the whole" is much better than a single statement per quarter..........and the fact that RFEs have been issued for failing to include all statements serves to prove that......your opinion or my opinion of what is ridiculous has no bearing.

Edited April 17, 2019 by missileman

[Scandi 4,166]

6 minutes ago, afrocraft said:

IMHO, it's just ridiculous to send in all bank statements for 3+ years. There is simply no added evidentiary value in doing so, and it shows a misunderstanding of the rationale for sending them at all.

 

Remember: What petitioners need to demonstrate for ROC is that a marriage was legit from the beginning to the present, as shown, in the totality of the circumstances, by shared habitation, financial practices, ownership, life experiences, planning for the future, etc. That means three main things for bank statements:

 

First, they'll be considered in light of other evidence. If you can't show through other ways that you live together, own stuff jointly, travel together, have kids together, or are planning for retirement together ("married people stuff"), sending all your bank statements from age 5 (Trump's dad was paying him a $200k salary from age 2!) won't matter.

 

Second, the statements need to show sharing of financial arrangements. Isn't that the main point of ROCs? So it'd be great if 1) the accounts were jointly owned, and 2) the statements have regular-life transactions (payments of rent, utilities, school fees, credit card bills, etc.). Again, "married people stuff". So pick statements that have detailed transactions.

 

Third, you want to show that your shared finances span from marriage to the present. Considering the above, one carefully selected statement with lots of transactions per quarter should be fine. Then focus on other evidence!

Tell that to those who also thought a few bank statements "should be fine" and then got RFEs for not sending them all. If you want to take that risk it's up to you, I'm sure many people (especially in the past) have gotten by just fine that way, so do as you please. But I'm not taking that risk after seeing several people on VJ getting RFEs lately for that very reason, especially when I have all my statements on hand already and all I need to do is copy and send them. For me there's no reason not to do it.

[Scandi 4,166]

8 minutes ago, PatGia said:

We are erring on the side of caution and sending all bank statements, around 225-250 pages. Ours do show the last four digits of the debit cards which is probably a great thing, though I think I need to talk to my wife about here apparent Amazon addiction...

 

One other question I have is regarding the cover letter. For the I-129 and AOS, I had a one page cover with bullet points for content. I am wondering if I should include anything else either in the cover letter or separately that explains anything about the finances? Such as pointing out that the copies of debit cards can be associated with entries on the statements, or noting when my wife started working and receiving direct deposit? Some of those financial connections. Or should I assume that they connect all the dots themselves? From W2s they can associate the employment with the deposits, and the employment with the insurance and such, just wondering if I should explain a bit and at least point them in the right direction. 

 

Thanks again to all who have replied here, this is all very helpful!

 

 

The number 1 rule is to never assume that USCIS will "connect the dots". Explain things thoroughly, over explain things. That's the only language USCIS workers understand. And you won't lose anything but a little time by doing so.

[afrocraft 313]

12 minutes ago, Scandi said:

Tell that to those who also thought a few bank statements "should be fine" and then got RFEs for not sending them all. If you want to take that risk it's up to you, I'm sure many people (especially in the past) have gotten by just fine that way, so do as you please. But I'm not taking that risk after seeing several people on VJ getting RFEs lately for that very reason, especially when I have all my statements on hand already and all I need to do is copy and send them. For me there's no reason not to do it.

Sigh. Did you look at the statements they sent in? Did they cover the period from marriage to the present? Did they include transaction info? Did they also send other corroborating evidence of cohabitation, co-mingled finances, joint travel, joint tax filing, etc.?

 

There's no requirement to send all your bank statements; the requirement is to show that your marriage is bona fide from marriage to the present. USCIS does not do RFEs simply because petitioners don't send all bank statements.

 

But print away if you want. Free country.

[Cryssiekins 976]

Just now, afrocraft said:

 

There's no requirement to send all your bank statements; the requirement is to show that your marriage is bona fide from marriage to the present. USCIS does not do RFEs simply because petitioners don't send all bank statements.

 

There have been more than a handful of posts as of late, where someone sent in quarterly statements and was asked to send in ALL statements.  

 

True - it may have been a “light” statement, and perhaps other items missing, and that we’ll never know.

 

Personally, my husband and I have few transactions in our monthly statement.  Majority are bill payments.  Everything else (groceries, entertainment, travel etc) is on credit cards (for points and history building).  I erred on the side of caution and sent all.  Covering the period of 2 months after we got married until the month before I filed.  

 

Additionally, each officer at USCIS is different.  Some may be more lenient on quarterly statements if there is an abundance of other bona fide evidence, and some, despite the strength of the other evidence may want all of them for completeness.  If I were a USCIS Officer, I would want all of them.  For continuity and to mitigate any chance that they were forged.  

 

The i751 is a subjective filing and you can include everything you want that presents your case in the best way forward, whether it is required or not.

[PatGia 16]

8 minutes ago, afrocraft said:

Sigh. Did you look at the statements they sent in? Did they cover the period from marriage to the present? Did they include transaction info? Did they also send other corroborating evidence of cohabitation, co-mingled finances, joint travel, joint tax filing, etc.?

 

There's no requirement to send all your bank statements; the requirement is to show that your marriage is bona fide from marriage to the present. USCIS does not do RFEs simply because petitioners don't send all bank statements.

 

But print away if you want. Free country.

 

Do I find it kind of unnecessary to send in all statements when a quarterly really should do? Yeah, I do. But It's not a great deal of time and effort to include them all, so I'll file that under the category of rather being over prepared.

[PatGia 16]

31 minutes ago, Scandi said:

The number 1 rule is to never assume that USCIS will "connect the dots". Explain things thoroughly, over explain things. That's the only language USCIS workers understand. And you won't lose anything but a little time by doing so.

I think I will add that to the cover letter or maybe an addendum of sorts to keep the cover letter a simple concise single page. I was thinking any explanation would be helpful, but who knows if someone takes that as suspicious in some way. 

[afrocraft 313]

4 minutes ago, Cryssiekins said:

There have been more than a handful of posts as of late, where someone sent in quarterly statements and was asked to send in ALL statements.  

 

The i751 is a subjective filing and you can include everything you want that presents your case in the best way forward, whether it is required or not.

I'm reminded of how the prevailing view of being successful at CR-1 in "high-fraud Lagos consulate" was submitting 200+ pictures. They said the same things too. Subjective. Discretionary. I presented 12, and I'm applying for citizenship now.

 

To the current matter: I'm still looking for one case where USCIS denied an I-751 because the petitioner did not submit all bank statements. Doesn't exist. More likely, applicants who get RFE for bank statements are light on other evidence of bona fides when you view the application in totality, or submitted suspicious looking statements.

 

Instead of mindlessly printing out 150 pages of bank statements out of fear of USCIS, you'll get better bang for your buck if you focused on building a total case. My framework, below, might help those struggling to do so. Good luck!

 

[millefleur 5,046]

22 minutes ago, afrocraft said:

Instead of mindlessly printing out 150 pages of bank statements out of fear of USCIS, you'll get better bang for your buck if you focused on building a total case. My framework, below, might help those struggling to do so. Good luck!

I agree with this and totally see where you are coming from, but not everyone has tons of strong evidence in every category. But I've been speculating about why they might be interested in all bank statements based on what I know to be a fact about the immigration process when it comes to paper evidence:

 

Bank statements are seen as one of the strongest pieces of evidence anyone can provide, yet they are endemically faked for immigration reasons.

 

I used to work at a big modelling agency in NYC, they had an in-house visa prep person there who constantly faked bank statements to ensure the visas would get approved. So, they were sending hundreds of fake bank statements to USCIS on a monthly basis and it worked every time. This was about 10 years ago. Now, this was for talent visas or other type of work-related visas, obviously not family based GC's. But I like to think that within the span of that 10 years, USCIS has caught on to this little trick that no doubt countless individuals have been using ever since Photoshop was created, for family based visas and all other kinds of visas as well no doubt. 

 

Now, I agree with what you're saying - if you can present a ton of other bits of very strong evidence, I see why sending in every single statement seems pointless. That said, I can also see why, especially if the other evidence presented looks not very genuine or could be easily faked, or the other evidence that was submitted was weak, requesting all bank statements to check for continuity would make sense. It would be significantly harder to fake statements month-to-month where all of the numbers made some kind of rational sense. So, that's my theory based on what I know. I could be totally wrong! But if people want to send in all bank statements, it makes total sense to me why given the photoshoppy fake statements USCIS has been dealing with for years. 

 

And you're right, sending in every statement is not required. But for some people, it might be a good precautionary measure to do so. If I would've had 500+ pages of statements, that's insane and I probably would've opted just to do quarterly ones. But I had probably around 150 pages or so, so I figured, meh, just include it to be on the safe side.

Edited April 17, 2019 by millefleur

[Crazy Cat 41,814]

26 minutes ago, afrocraft said:

Instead of mindlessly printing out 150 pages of bank statements out of fear of USCIS, you'll get better bang for your buck if you focused on building a total case.

I included 21 bank statements.....only about 70 pages.....so not a big deal.......but I also had a lot of strong evidence, too:

• Key pages from signed Apartment lease for previous address 2017-2018 with both our names & signatures 

• Complete 2018 Joint Tax Return as filed by our accountant 

• 2018 Joint IRS Return Transcript 

• Complete Bank joint checking acct statements since my wife's arrival in June 2017 showing co-mingled finances and household expenditures 

• Copy of registered Deed for current home with both our names and signatures 

• Mortgage Lender Letter for our current home address with both our names 

• Copy of our Citibank Credit Cards showing both on account with same card number 

• Copy of Citibank credit statement with activity showing us both as trip passengers 

• Amazon delivery label showing both names and our current address 

• Copy of [wife name]'s Military Dependent ID card showing me ([My Name]) as the sponsor for spouse (SP) 

• Tricare Health Care Coverage Eligibility Letter showing both of us together 

• My most recent Retired Military pay statement showing [wife name] (spouse) as my beneficiary 

• Valid Texas Health Care Directives appointing each other as sole health care proxy(Advanced Directives) 

• Copies of our Texas driver's licenses with common current address for both of us 

• Current GeicoCar Insurance Cards showing both of us as insured drivers for our car 

• City Utility application showing both our names for our current address 

• Copies of Boarding Passes for Las Vegas Valentine Day Trip February 2019 

• Pictures of us on special occasions here in the US 

I agree that one should not focus too heavily on one category of evidence while failing to develop the "big picture".

[afrocraft 313]

My point is clear and unassailable: There is no requirement to submit ALL bank statements -- or even a single one! -- for the I-751. If that were the case, people who use exclusively cash and have no bank accounts would never qualify for approval. The requirement is to show that your marriage is bona fide, and you are better served demonstrating that through multiple, corroborating evidence.

[Crazy Cat 41,814]

5 minutes ago, afrocraft said:

There is no requirement to submit ALL bank statements -- or even a single one! -- for the I-751.

Requirement?  No.....But the object is to provide USCIS with an unambiguous picture of a bona fide marriage......joint financial mingling is a strong indicator of that......and there is nothing improper with providing as much evidence as possible to provide them with a clear picture.......spotty evidence doesn't do that......

Edited April 17, 2019 by missileman

[afrocraft 313]

1 minute ago, missileman said:

But the object is to provide USCIS with an unambiguous picture of a bona fide marriage......joint financial mingling is a strong indicator of that......and there is nothing improper with providing as much evidence as possible to provide them with a clear picture.......spotty evidence doesn't do that......

Are you kidding me? Jointly filed tax returns, both names of major assets (housing, cars, fine art) are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more reliable indicators of comingling of finances than bank statements, which are easily faked.

[Crazy Cat 41,814]

1 minute ago, afrocraft said:

Are you kidding me? Jointly filed tax returns, both names of major assets (housing, cars, fine art) are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more reliable indicators of comingling of finances than bank statements, which are easily faked.

Anything can be faked.....I'm done here.

Missileman out!!!

[Cryssiekins 976]

1 minute ago, afrocraft said:

Are you kidding me? Jointly filed tax returns, both names of major assets (housing, cars, fine art) are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more reliable indicators of comingling of finances than bank statements, which are easily faked.

We get it - it wasn’t needed in your case, but for other people, in different circumstances, those statements may be critical to their filing.  You can tell me until you’re blue in the face that I didn’t need to send banking info, and I will respectfully disagree until I am blue in the face.  To each their own, since no two people have the same journey or circumstance.  

 

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