Hawaii considers ban on cigarette sales

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,378]

4 minutes ago, fascinating123 said:

 

So we're talking about an externality issue, then. I understand where you're coming from and I'm sympathetic, however the problem is more complex than you portray. You don't have to go to a smoker's house, nor do you have to invite a smoker to your own home. Further, you mention disliking the smell, but what about non-smoker's who do like the smell (my wife is such a person, and likes the way I smell after smoking a cigar)? I think the Coase theorem solution is more appropriate here than government stepping in to correct an externality.

Pretty much I am a your rights stop where mine start. I agree a person has the right to smoke in their own home or wherever else that does not infringe upun your right not to.

 

I also think government should not tell a restaurant if people can smoke there or not. If you dont like ir dont go. I would be in yhe dont go crowd 

[fascinating123 38]

4 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

Pretty much I am a your rights stop where mine start. I agree a person has the right to smoke in their own home or wherever else that does not infringe upun your right not to.

 

I also think government should not tell a restaurant if people can smoke there or not. If you dont like ir dont go. I would be in yhe dont go crowd 

I don't think we disagree. But I believe the person I was replying to was inferring that a person does not have a right to smoke anywhere on Earth. I also think there are ways to resolve conflicts over rights (i.e. offensive smells in this case) without resorting to physical force.

 

But yes, I agree. The market should bear this out.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,378]

49 minutes ago, fascinating123 said:

I don't think we disagree. But I believe the person I was replying to was inferring that a person does not have a right to smoke anywhere on Earth. I also think there are ways to resolve conflicts over rights (i.e. offensive smells in this case) without resorting to physical force.

 

But yes, I agree. The market should bear this out.

Your new but everyone refers to me as always being a middle of the road kind of guy

[OriZ 3,157]

Nope, I disagree with both of you. This isn't about my right to go buy a soda, it hurts millions of innocent people.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,378]

27 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Nope, I disagree with both of you. This isn't about my right to go buy a soda, it hurts millions of innocent people.

So you dont think someone has the right to engage in a legal activity in their own home. I agree smoking is a filthy un unhealthy habit .

[TBoneTX 46,017]

I'm sometimes sickened by diesel and regular vehicular exhaust.

I dislike the way that I and others smell when blasted with it.

It's certainly more voluminous and less healthy than tobacco smoke.

Accordingly, we should ban drive-through windows and drive-up anythings.

 

I'm also made nauseous by various perfumes, colognes, and aftershaves.

These should be banned, and the wearers penalized and socially shunned.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,378]

14 minutes ago, TBoneTX said:

I'm sometimes sickened by diesel and regular vehicular exhaust.

I dislike the way that I and others smell when blasted with it.

It's certainly more voluminous and less healthy than tobacco smoke.

Accordingly, we should ban drive-through windows and drive-up anythings.

 

I'm also made nauseous by various perfumes, colognes, and aftershaves.

These should be banned, and the wearers penalized and socially shunned.

I use to love the smell of Jp 4 exhaust from a huey 

[NikLR 13,232]

12 minutes ago, TBoneTX said:

I'm sometimes sickened by diesel and regular vehicular exhaust.

I dislike the way that I and others smell when blasted with it.

It's certainly more voluminous and less healthy than tobacco smoke.

Accordingly, we should ban drive-through windows and drive-up anythings.

 

I'm also made nauseous by various perfumes, colognes, and aftershaves.

These should be banned, and the wearers penalized and socially shunned.

1) strangely I agree with you about drive up windows... even though I use them I actually prefer to park and order inside.  Often it's faster but sometimes it's so much slower.

2) In some businesses it is against the workplace code to wear perfume or cologne.  I would prefer not to walk around the mall and get a headache from the smell of perfumes and other scents that arise from bath and body works, lush, and victoria's secret.  It's the same headache I get when I walk around a casino and smell cigarette smoke.  If there was ever a positive for online shopping, the lack of headache for me and my husband definitely is on that list. 

 

 

When we say "legal in their own home" well when those people walk around and go out in public and smell like cigarette smoke what then?  I've had to air out rooms for an hour or more with air freshener added in (which can't be particularly healthy either) at the animal clinic I work at.  Poor animals come in and stink like cigarettes.  What's happening to their lungs? Or children?  When they are in the home or car of a person who's legally smoking?  The residual smoke that's on that person's clothes can also be detrimental.  Going beyond cigarettes how about  when pets come in high as a kite after getting into ashes, edibles, or because someone didn't bother to remove them from the room or home in which they were smoking pot.  I've driven behind cars with butts carelessly thrown from windows.  Most forest fires these days are actually started from cigarette butts and those cost the public in both lives and money.   

 

Strangely the time I smoked cigarettes was when I had the least amount of income.  At my high school the people that smoked, were generally the ones from lower income homes.  I think that says something about our society. 

7 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

I use to love the smell of Jp 4 exhaust from a huey 

just fyi, I noticed your profile says city: parts unkown.... did you mean unknown?

[fascinating123 38]

54 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Nope, I disagree with both of you. This isn't about my right to go buy a soda, it hurts millions of innocent people.

Is there theoretically anywhere one could smoke in your view? Like, if someone were to terraform Mars or Venus, or found a habitable moon somewhere, could they go smoke there? Or is the pollution being put into the galaxy too close for comfort?

[yuna628 9,705]

8 minutes ago, NikLR said:

1) strangely I agree with you about drive up windows... even though I use them I actually prefer to park and order inside.  Often it's faster but sometimes it's so much slower.

2) In some businesses it is against the workplace code to wear perfume or cologne.  I would prefer not to walk around the mall and get a headache from the smell of perfumes and other scents that arise from bath and body works, lush, and victoria's secret.  It's the same headache I get when I walk around a casino and smell cigarette smoke.  If there was ever a positive for online shopping, the lack of headache for me and my husband definitely is on that list. 

 

 

When we say "legal in their own home" well when those people walk around and go out in public and smell like cigarette smoke what then?  I've had to air out rooms for an hour or more with air freshener added in (which can't be particularly healthy either) at the animal clinic I work at.  Poor animals come in and stink like cigarettes.  What's happening to their lungs? Or children?  When they are in the home or car of a person who's legally smoking?  The residual smoke that's on that person's clothes can also be detrimental.  Going beyond cigarettes how about  when pets come in high as a kite after getting into ashes, edibles, or because someone didn't bother to remove them from the room or home in which they were smoking pot.  I've driven behind cars with butts carelessly thrown from windows.  Most forest fires these days are actually started from cigarette butts and those cost the public in both lives and money.   

 

Strangely the time I smoked cigarettes was when I had the least amount of income.  At my high school the people that smoked, were generally the ones from lower income homes.  I think that says something about our society. 

just fyi, I noticed your profile says city: parts unkown.... did you mean unknown?

Which is inherently why I said that smoking infringes upon the life of others and carelessly damages those lives - being their heath and their genes they pass to offspring for generations. Ideally a smoker should have the liberty to smoke in their own home, however if others are in the home that will, as you say cause harm. Ultimately a smoker chooses not to care about how their actions affect themselves and others, generally like many addicts.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

2 hours ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

Pretty much I am a your rights stop where mine start. I agree a person has the right to smoke in their own home or wherever else that does not infringe upun your right not to.

 

I also think government should not tell a restaurant if people can smoke there or not. If you dont like ir dont go. I would be in yhe dont go crowd 

 

  People working in the restaraunt industry have used to have some of the highest rates of second smoke exposure anywhere. The argument for being allowed to smoke in your own home does not logically extend to being able to smoke where you are exposing other people to the risks of smoking.

[NikLR 13,232]

Just now, Steeleballz said:

 

  People working in the restaraunt industry have used to have some of the highest rates of second smoke exposure anywhere. The argument for being allowed to smoke in your own home does not logically extend to being able to smoke where you are exposing other people to the risks of smoking.

Maybe what he's saying is that they could choose to work elsewhere.  Personally I think restaurants have no smoking because it's easier for them to have clientele and staff. 

[Steeleballz 7,550]

1 minute ago, NikLR said:

Maybe what he's saying is that they could choose to work elsewhere.  Personally I think restaurants have no smoking because it's easier for them to have clientele and staff. 

 

   I thought he was referring to customers going elsewhere, but I guess if you apply the rationale to people working there, then there is a fair point. I still don't agree with it though. I think banning smoking in public places was great legislation and a good compromise for everyone. Some of the other measures, as I said surcharges by employers for smoking are a step in the right direction too. Getting back to Missleman's original point, I have to ask why employers don't have a surcharge for other health risks too using the same logic. I would not be surprised if things go that way at some point. 

 

 Just from reading this thread, I would say where we currently are with smokers vs non smokers rights rights a compromise that doesn't make anyone 100% happy, but smokers still have the right to smoke and non smokers have a greatly diminished exposure to second hand smoke compared to years ago. I am alright with being at that point that really. 

[millefleur 5,047]

2 hours ago, Steeleballz said:

   I thought he was referring to customers going elsewhere, but I guess if you apply the rationale to people working there, then there is a fair point. I still don't agree with it though. I think banning smoking in public places was great legislation and a good compromise for everyone. Some of the other measures, as I said surcharges by employers for smoking are a step in the right direction too. Getting back to Missleman's original point, I have to ask why employers don't have a surcharge for other health risks too using the same logic. I would not be surprised if things go that way at some point. 

 

 Just from reading this thread, I would say where we currently are with smokers vs non smokers rights rights a compromise that doesn't make anyone 100% happy, but smokers still have the right to smoke and non smokers have a greatly diminished exposure to second hand smoke compared to years ago. I am alright with being at that point that really. 

Yup, exactly. It's a compromise. It's impossible to make everyone happy all the time.

 

Another thing I forgot is New York City's "smoking police" - there's a hotline you can call or a website form to fill out to report any illegal workplace smoking. I used to work at a place where the owner liked to walk around the office smoking, at times coming into my desk area and hovering over me to observe my work while smoking. I reported the company to the "smoking police" anonymously and they did indeed show up and fine the business heavily. I was pretty impressed with that and the owner guy significantly reduced his amount of smoking in the office after that.

Edited February 7, 2019 by millefleur

[Randyandyuni 2,682]

there are lots of common behaviors that offends me ... does not afford me the opportunity to deny you your right to enjoy them, however smoking is one that no one defends, I am glad I no longer smoke but believe what people do in their homes is their business