New York State Senate Passes Bill Permitting Abortions up to Birth

[Boiler 45,367]

The people who want adopt do not want to adopt older troubled minority children whose mothers were drug addled etc.

 

Horrible generalisation but you get the concept.

 

 

[Póg mo 1,749]

1 hour ago, Boiler said:

The people who want adopt do not want to adopt older troubled minority children whose mothers were drug addled etc.

 

Horrible generalisation but you get the concept.

 

 

I agree, definitely a horrible generalisation, and gross over simplification. 

[Póg mo 1,749]

1 hour ago, ALFKAD said:

Then why create them in the first place?

 

Mating often leads to procreating, or so one would believe.

Fortune telling isn't yet a recognized science. Do you disagree?

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,370]

3 hours ago, ALFKAD said:

Did you really just say that?  Comparing the 630,000-700,000 abortions per year to 1300 accidental homicides?  

 

Good thing for you straws are becoming persona non grata...

McDonald's here is using paper Strawn but putting every order, even dine in, in plastic bags. . Makes perfect sense in mdl land 

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,370]

1 hour ago, Boiler said:

The people who want adopt do not want to adopt older troubled minority children whose mothers were drug addled etc.

 

Horrible generalisation but you get the concept.

 

 

Don't ever apologize for the truth dude. 

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,370]

2 hours ago, ALFKAD said:

Then why create them in the first place?

 

Mating often leads to procreating, or so one would believe.

Some times you can have sex by accident. Sounds crazy but sometimes you do it knowing it's gonna cost you dearly. 

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,370]

Most people I know are pro life but spport the right of a woman to make choices up to a point and viable deliverable baby is beyond that point, unless there are very definable extraordinary reasons.

 

Having said that i think this is settled case law in most cases, but politicians on both sides use it whip their bases into a frenzy, while real issues get pushed to the background.  

 

If i was setting the legislative agenda , reinventing the abortion debate would be a low priority. 

[Randyandyuni 2,682]

This is beyond pro-choice and pro-life. We are not talking about fetuses but viable living humans when you get into the 3rd trimester. If you are incapable of making a choice in 3 months, are you making the correct one at 8 months or the expedient one. If the mother is at risk or the child is not viable or will be profoundly handicapped which can be tested for in vitro well before the 3rd trimester have the abortion, but not because you changed your mind, are mad at him or moody

[jg121783 3,909]

4 hours ago, Randyandyuni said:

This is beyond pro-choice and pro-life. We are not talking about fetuses but viable living humans when you get into the 3rd trimester. If you are incapable of making a choice in 3 months, are you making the correct one at 8 months or the expedient one. If the mother is at risk or the child is not viable or will be profoundly handicapped which can be tested for in vitro well before the 3rd trimester have the abortion, but not because you changed your mind, are mad at him or moody

That is the whole point of this thread and any attempt to frame the debate around abortion as a whole is just a red herring. I am guilty of it myself here.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

I am all about choices.  Not sure I agree with it being JUST the woman’s choice, though it is her body.  What if she doesn’t want the baby, but the father does?  It’s half his.  But if she doesn’t want to carry it to term and give it to him, that is her choice.  Slippery slope.

 

But as to the long-term abortion choice... I still think THAT decision should be made before copulation.  There are just FAR too many effective contraceptive options available today to prevent unwanted births, and should be the go-to method in my opinion.  

 

But for oopsies, aborting within the first month is not an issue for me personally.  Aborting for unhealty/disfigured child is an easy decision as well, even a few months into the process.  It takes time to diagnose, understand, and make a decision.  Having watched families suffer for years caring for unhealthy children makes me thankful every day that my kids were healthy.  So I could understand a couple’s decision to abort for medical reasons.

 

About the only time I could see a late-term abortion coming into play is a relationship break up.  Say a couple decided to get pregnant, but 6 months later they split.  Perhaps the mom doesn’t have the best job (or any job).  Is it a good idea to bring that kid into the world to potentially live in poverty?  Sure, adoption is available, but not often easy nor cheap.  And this scenario can’t be all that common, so I don’t really see why anyone would ever want to abort just prior to birth.  Even if you take out the morality issue of murder, why would it be a thought in any normal mother’s mind to abort in the 9th or 10th month?  

[yuna628 9,665]

29 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

I am all about choices.  Not sure I agree with it being JUST the woman’s choice, though it is her body.  What if she doesn’t want the baby, but the father does?  It’s half his.  But if she doesn’t want to carry it to term and give it to him, that is her choice.  Slippery slope.

 

But as to the long-term abortion choice... I still think THAT decision should be made before copulation.  There are just FAR too many effective contraceptive options available today to prevent unwanted births, and should be the go-to method in my opinion.  

 

But for oopsies, aborting within the first month is not an issue for me personally.  Aborting for unhealty/disfigured child is an easy decision as well, even a few months into the process.  It takes time to diagnose, understand, and make a decision.  Having watched families suffer for years caring for unhealthy children makes me thankful every day that my kids were healthy.  So I could understand a couple’s decision to abort for medical reasons.

 

About the only time I could see a late-term abortion coming into play is a relationship break up.  Say a couple decided to get pregnant, but 6 months later they split.  Perhaps the mom doesn’t have the best job (or any job).  Is it a good idea to bring that kid into the world to potentially live in poverty?  Sure, adoption is available, but not often easy nor cheap.  And this scenario can’t be all that common, so I don’t really see why anyone would ever want to abort just prior to birth.  Even if you take out the morality issue of murder, why would it be a thought in any normal mother’s mind to abort in the 9th or 10th month?  

I've spoken about how I and hubby feel regarding abortions before, and the things his sister went through in carrying a baby to term that died an agonizing death within days of his birth. How she was pressured to have an abortion early on, and struggled with the weight of it mentally, was then given false hope about the prospects of the child's health after birth, then was not provided proper care in delivery that resulted in a long delivery which she almost died, and then lost the baby anyway a few days later. Most women, if they are going to have an abortion, aren't going to take a long time to decide... but there are a few reasons why it does happen much later than 'desired'. Look at a lot of statistical research on the reasons woman might list - family pressure and stigma is one aspect, abusive/dangerous relationships, addiction/mental health, another is fear and no support system if it is a young woman, some women do not know they are pregnant and by the time they do have caused great damage to the baby, and a small percentage - either poor healthcare or doctors not picking up on an abnormality until late (this does happen!), or some sort of dangerous illness that affects the life of the mother late in term may choose abortions late.

 

I saw a discussion from a woman that was aware she was pregnant I think about three weeks, and sought out how to go have an abortion under advice of her OBGYN. She was told she could not seek out an abortion until she had developed enough for something to be seen on US and to go home and wait some more weeks. By the time something could be seen on the US, and she could actually make an appointment to have an abortion (now about six or seven weeks along), had she lived in another state she actually would have fallen into the timeframe where some have restrictions involving heartbeats.

 

Oopsies happen. So does rape, peer pressure, and abused frightened young women that don't know what to do until it's too late. It might happen less if women had less restrictive access to birth control, or more medical research was put into more healthier and effective birth control (its not full-proof and there are side effects). To me, the more government gets out of our personal choices and our bedrooms the better.

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

10 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I've spoken about how I and hubby feel regarding abortions before, and the things his sister went through in carrying a baby to term that died an agonizing death within days of his birth. How she was pressured to have an abortion early on, and struggled with the weight of it mentally, was then given false hope about the prospects of the child's health after birth, then was not provided proper care in delivery that resulted in a long delivery which she almost died, and then lost the baby anyway a few days later. Most women, if they are going to have an abortion, aren't going to take a long time to decide... but there are a few reasons why it does happen much later than 'desired'. Look at a lot of statistical research on the reasons woman might list - family pressure and stigma is one aspect, abusive/dangerous relationships, addiction/mental health, another is fear and no support system if it is a young woman, some women do not know they are pregnant and by the time they do have caused great damage to the baby, and a small percentage - either poor healthcare or doctors not picking up on an abnormality until late (this does happen!), or some sort of dangerous illness that affects the life of the mother late in term may choose abortions late.

 

I saw a discussion from a woman that was aware she was pregnant I think about three weeks, and sought out how to go have an abortion under advice of her OBGYN. She was told she could not seek out an abortion until she had developed enough for something to be seen on US and to go home and wait some more weeks. By the time something could be seen on the US, and she could actually make an appointment to have an abortion (now about six or seven weeks along), had she lived in another state she actually would have fallen into the timeframe where some have restrictions involving heartbeats.

 

Oopsies happen. So does rape, peer pressure, and abused frightened young women that don't know what to do until it's too late. It might happen less if women had less restrictive access to birth control, or more medical research was put into more healthier and effective birth control (its not full-proof and there are side effects). To me, the more government gets out of our personal choices and our bedrooms the better.

Why was this the case, did she have a natural birth or a C-section? I know when my 3rd child(my wife's 1st) we had a big issue because she wasn't dilating enough for the baby to come through even after being at that same point for hours. So the OB came out and gave us(pretty much me) the choice on wither to keep going and try to have a natural birth but it could case complications for the baby and my wife, or go ahead and do the C-section. So I made the choice to go ahead and do the C-section right away. We were lucky that our daughter came out healthy. 

When my wife was pregnant with my 4th(our 2nd) child we were originally told that the fetus may have a genetic abnormality. So we were told the options and given further testing. So we had to undergo literally days of being like "OMG what if the baby is like this or has a serious issue", which kept us up at night thinking about it. Luckily the advanced testing showed no abnormalities and we had a very healthy baby girl who just turned 2.  

[yuna628 9,665]

Just now, Cyberfx1024 said:

Why was this the case, did she have a natural birth or a C-section? I know when my 3rd child(my wife's 1st) we had a big issue because she wasn't dilating enough for the baby to come through even after being at that same point for hours. So the OB came out and gave us(pretty much me) the choice on wither to keep going and try to have a natural birth but it could case complications for the baby and my wife, or go ahead and do the C-section. So I made the choice to go ahead and do the C-section right away. We were lucky that our daughter came out healthy. 

When my wife was pregnant with my 4th(our 2nd) child we were originally told that the fetus may have a genetic abnormality. So we were told the options and given further testing. So we had to undergo literally days of being like "OMG what if the baby is like this or has a serious issue", which kept us up at night thinking about it. Luckily the advanced testing showed no abnormalities and we had a very healthy baby girl who just turned 2.  

She had a natural birth... something that blew my mind, especially knowing the prospects the baby had. She nearly bled to death from PPH. The lack of good hospital care where his family lives is known to be quite poor (her subsequent pregnancies have also been difficult, and after nearly dying again after the last baby.. they told her no more babies). I feel the baby would have had a better fighting chance if it had been born elsewhere. But at that hospital on the NHS? Hoo boy... why even bother trying, too much resources to waste on a dying baby? If you can't tell I'm still angry about it... there have been other babies with this condition that survived in special hospitals London and Leicester. Some hospitals in the UK don't want to do C-sections, saying it's not necessary and others pressure women into not having them. The child was loved very much, but the trauma mom and the entire family went through was brutal. I wish she had been given better support and answers she needed. I know how hard it was for her to decide to carry it to term. I'm glad to hear your little one was just fine, can only imagine how much panic we'd go through if told something like that.

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

10 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

She had a natural birth... something that blew my mind, especially knowing the prospects the baby had. She nearly bled to death from PPH. The lack of good hospital care where his family lives is known to be quite poor (her subsequent pregnancies have also been difficult, and after nearly dying again after the last baby.. they told her no more babies). I feel the baby would have had a better fighting chance if it had been born elsewhere. But at that hospital on the NHS? Hoo boy... why even bother trying, too much resources to waste on a dying baby? If you can't tell I'm still angry about it... there have been other babies with this condition that survived in special hospitals London and Leicester. Some hospitals in the UK don't want to do C-sections, saying it's not necessary and others pressure women into not having them. The child was loved very much, but the trauma mom and the entire family went through was brutal. I wish she had been given better support and answers she needed. I know how hard it was for her to decide to carry it to term. I'm glad to hear your little one was just fine, can only imagine how much panic we'd go through if told something like that.

That is really sad for her and the baby..... The most you can do is give the baby a fighting chance at life however short it may be if the parents decided to do that and the hospital screwed it up. Yeah my wife cried her eyes literally after I helped explain to her what the initial tests showed us and after we had to undergo counseling on what it could lead to. We requested additional testing which meant a needle into the womb but luckily she is bright and smiling. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Cyberfx1024

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

1 hour ago, yuna628 said:

I've spoken about how I and hubby feel regarding abortions before, and the things his sister went through in carrying a baby to term that died an agonizing death within days of his birth. How she was pressured to have an abortion early on, and struggled with the weight of it mentally, was then given false hope about the prospects of the child's health after birth, then was not provided proper care in delivery that resulted in a long delivery which she almost died, and then lost the baby anyway a few days later. Most women, if they are going to have an abortion, aren't going to take a long time to decide... but there are a few reasons why it does happen much later than 'desired'. Look at a lot of statistical research on the reasons woman might list - family pressure and stigma is one aspect, abusive/dangerous relationships, addiction/mental health, another is fear and no support system if it is a young woman, some women do not know they are pregnant and by the time they do have caused great damage to the baby, and a small percentage - either poor healthcare or doctors not picking up on an abnormality until late (this does happen!), or some sort of dangerous illness that affects the life of the mother late in term may choose abortions late.

 

I saw a discussion from a woman that was aware she was pregnant I think about three weeks, and sought out how to go have an abortion under advice of her OBGYN. She was told she could not seek out an abortion until she had developed enough for something to be seen on US and to go home and wait some more weeks. By the time something could be seen on the US, and she could actually make an appointment to have an abortion (now about six or seven weeks along), had she lived in another state she actually would have fallen into the timeframe where some have restrictions involving heartbeats.

 

Oopsies happen. So does rape, peer pressure, and abused frightened young women that don't know what to do until it's too late. It might happen less if women had less restrictive access to birth control, or more medical research was put into more healthier and effective birth control (its not full-proof and there are side effects). To me, the more government gets out of our personal choices and our bedrooms the better.

Sorry to hear about that situation and subsequent loss in your family, Yuna.  Truly sad.

 

I have always supported abortion for rape, to me that’s a no-brainer.  But less restrictive birth control?  How so?  Since I was a kid, condoms, diaphragms, pills, vasectomies/tubligations, and various other methods have been available.  Costs vary, of course.

 

Cannot have an abortion until waiting until something develops?  That seems like the opposite of good, common sense to me.  What state, do you remember?