US shutdown: Trump angered by Democrat rejection of 'compromise'

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

8 hours ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

I am in the Philippines,  were you have to show an ID and get your finger dipped in ink. I just told my in laws about this. They could not comprehend  why anyone could possibly think its a bad idea.

 

There are also walls around most of the houses.

 

My 10 year old gifted neice ask me about history. I told her about WW2 and the Japanese invading the Philippines.  She had never heard of it. Then we touched on the holocaust.  She just could not get her mind around Hitler gassing over 6 million jews.  Children should be taught what happens when  evil is not checked .

When you talk about the holocaust, by all means mention the 6 million Jews.  But please also talk about the other 11 million Poles, Soviets, and others that Hitler put to death.  17 million in all.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,382]

12 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

When you talk about the holocaust, by all means mention the 6 million Jews.  But please also talk about the other 11 million Poles, Soviets, and others that Hitler put to death.  17 million in all.

I had a Jehovah's witness tell me he gassed aas bunch of them also

[spookyturtle 9,466]

4 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

It did seem that President Trump compromised a lot in this last debate.  I thought he originally wanted 25 billion for a barrier and came all the way down to 5-6 billion.  I don't remember Speaker Pelosi ever coming off zero. 

Dems are getting even for Obama. 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

26 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

I had a Jehovah's witness tell me he gassed aas bunch of them also

True.  I remember hearing about the 6 million Jews as a teen, but was surprised as an adult to learn of the other 11 million.  Strange that I was not taught the complete truth.  To think he started out his life as an artist, then a soldier, and later became the monster we know today... really makes one think.  He saw the loss of Germany during WW1 as a direct result of the lack of truly patriotic people who lived in Germany at the time.

 

Really cracks me up when I see people compare Trump to Hitler.  Just shows their total ignorance.

[Chris Duffy 1,257]

1 hour ago, ALFKAD said:

When you talk about the holocaust, by all means mention the 6 million Jews.  But please also talk about the other 11 million Poles, Soviets, and others that Hitler put to death.  17 million in all.

I wasn't aware of that

 

Thanks for information

[OriZ 3,157]

2 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

I noticed that back on my first visit to the ROK back in 2008.  It was then that I learned it was a very prevalent symbol in several Asian based religions (Buddhism, Hindu, etc.).  I think they were using it way before Germany adopted it in the mid-20th century.  Regardless, it did surprise me that it was still being used.

Well yes it has been used long before Nazi germany, but I'm talking specifically about them. same colors and everything, and even Hitler images, so there's no doubt it's actually that and not just the age old hindu swastika.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

28 minutes ago, Chris Duffy said:

I wasn't aware of that

 

Thanks for information

Glad to know i wasn’t the only one who was unaware.  My discovery came when my Pinay was asking me why Hitler killed 6 million Jews.  She knew ABOUT it, but no details.  So we started reading, and both learned more.

[Dashinka 24,804]

50 minutes ago, spookyturtle said:

Dems are getting even for Obama. 

I seem to remember the Dems taking a pretty hardline on most things during the Obama years as well.  Pretty hard to compromise with a group that believes they are always right and their position should not bend at all. 

[yuna628 9,717]

12 hours ago, ALFKAD said:

Can you elaborate on what you mean by a state making it hard to get an ID?  I've had one since I was 15, and never once had any problems obtaining one.  I carry 3 IDs daily, a 4th when I'm working, plus I have a birth certificate.

 

Third world country, but the Philippines issues a postal ID, about $2.  Used country wide as proof of who you are.

We've had multiple threads on this subject, and every time you ask me the same question. And every time I answer you pretty extensively, have you forgotten again?

 

I'll try it once more:  ID laws have changed extensively over the years. Way back when it was easier for people to get one. Like in my dad's day, he literally walked in with nothing, took a test and got his license. My dad was born in wooden farmhouse built back in the late 1700s that still stands today off a dirt road in the middle of a field with no fixed address; as a home birth he has no birth certificate. If for some reason the law changed in that renewing his license involved handing over paperwork under new rules there is no way he could do this.This is much the same as his own mother, one of 12 kids, all home births and all not having certificates. My mom also never had her certificate. She was not a home birth iirc, however some people depending on where they lived actually didn't get issued an actual certificate - rather a different piece of paper. This type of paper became no longer accepted by the state as something valid to use. But as a housewife, that did not drive, drink, smoke, travel or have need of an ID - she had no use for obtaining one. In this modern age, when she began to need one due to pain medication she takes for RA, I set about trying to help her obtain one. It took weeks dealing with multiple state agencies, each one not being able to help.

 

Keep the following in mind: in many states they have made it so that - you cannot obtain a BC without an ID. AND, you cannot obtain an ID without a BC. And you have to deal with the BC issue first. After many weeks of fighting on her behalf and arguing with the state, I managed to obtain her BC and finally, an ID.

 

This problem can happen to those who are also not elderly. My own sister also did not have her BC, in lieu of a different document that was issued up until the 80s. This was also no longer acceptable to the state. She did have a passport, but this was expired long ago, and she obtained this before federal rules changed also involving birth certificates. She also had an old ID, but the state at the time refused to renew this (again rule changes) without her having a birth certificate. I went to the office and the person basically told her that she would be at a stalemate. There would be no way to issue her a BC, and no way for her to obtain an ID. I requested a supervisor, and that person bent the rules for me, and issued her one, only under the stipulation that I would sign a release form ''vouching'' for her.

 

I did have a BC once. Though it was completely different looking from what the state accepts these days. However I was pre-1999 obtain both an ID and passport and kept them renewed without issue. However due to some circumstances, my BC was lost/destroyed. A photocopy of it was not accepted, me showing a valid passport was not accepted at the DMV as further proof either. BC or nothing. I went back to the office though, and because I still had a valid passport, this was the only way they were able to issue me a new BC.

 

There are many reasons why obtaining IDs are not a simple process. And there are many reasons why obtaining BCs are not either. The elderly, the poor, those born in southern states pre and post segregation, home births, no record of births, lost or destroyed documents, those that were born into religious families that kept them completely ''off-grid'' (a subject I am quite passionate about.. kids that have to go through many years worth of ordeals just to prove that they exist in court hearings and go through multiple state/federal agencies), those from PR who had all BC invalidated pre-2010, those that are homeless or have had difficult living situations before getting better, those that suffered theft, loss, disasters, or fires.

 

Our Constitution says the right to vote should not be infringed. ID laws or more inherently state hoops can do that with unintended consequences. There have been many studies on this very subject and the elderly, and there have been many widely reported cases too. Our elders go to vote and are turned away because they don't realize, or they were not able to obtain their documents, or had no one to help them so they gave up. And I do agree, it seems a no brainer that an ID be given to vote, but there has to be a better way that makes it fair for a person to obtain one. Everyone seems to have a SSN (well except for the ''off-grid'' kids I mentioned) and accepted the government issuing such a number, but no one seemed to want to except an ID from the government in the same way. It was called a dangerous privacy invasion, and yet we know so many other countries where voting is a fairly easy streamlined process. According to some statistics 20 million potentially eligible voters do not have an ID. They continue to live their daily lives without needing one. At some point it may become difficult for them to correct that situation. Some 18% aged 65 and over don't have an ID, and may have difficulties obtaining a BC. This increases within other groups too. I can see this problem actually growing bigger now that flying domestically may require a different type of ID or even passport, at least in those that could manage to previously travel. In 2016 one estimate stated that some 50,000 persons already registered to vote or used to be able to vote, now couldn't do so because they lacked an ID or access to a BC. Texas attempted to help persons without an ID by issuing an EIC, however this still required documents that much like an ID requirement, may have been difficult to obtain. Still, Texas didn't hand out very many of these EICs compared to the number of those still unable to obtain them, and additionally the Texas Observer investigated 46 counties, and discovered those in charge either didn't know what an EIC was and would not recognize them. In other states with these type of ''help'', the results were similar.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

13 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

We've had multiple threads on this subject, and every time you ask me the same question. And every time I answer you pretty extensively, have you forgotten again?

 

I'll try it once more:  ID laws have changed extensively over the years. Way back when it was easier for people to get one. Like in my dad's day, he literally walked in with nothing, took a test and got his license. My dad was born in wooden farmhouse built back in the late 1700s that still stands today off a dirt road in the middle of a field with no fixed address; as a home birth he has no birth certificate. If for some reason the law changed in that renewing his license involved handing over paperwork under new rules there is no way he could do this.This is much the same as his own mother, one of 12 kids, all home births and all not having certificates. My mom also never had her certificate. She was not a home birth iirc, however some people depending on where they lived actually didn't get issued an actual certificate - rather a different piece of paper. This type of paper became no longer accepted by the state as something valid to use. But as a housewife, that did not drive, drink, smoke, travel or have need of an ID - she had no use for obtaining one. In this modern age, when she began to need one due to pain medication she takes for RA, I set about trying to help her obtain one. It took weeks dealing with multiple state agencies, each one not being able to help.

 

Keep the following in mind: in many states they have made it so that - you cannot obtain a BC without an ID. AND, you cannot obtain an ID without a BC. And you have to deal with the BC issue first. After many weeks of fighting on her behalf and arguing with the state, I managed to obtain her BC and finally, an ID.

 

This problem can happen to those who are also not elderly. My own sister also did not have her BC, in lieu of a different document that was issued up until the 80s. This was also no longer acceptable to the state. She did have a passport, but this was expired long ago, and she obtained this before federal rules changed also involving birth certificates. She also had an old ID, but the state at the time refused to renew this (again rule changes) without her having a birth certificate. I went to the office and the person basically told her that she would be at a stalemate. There would be no way to issue her a BC, and no way for her to obtain an ID. I requested a supervisor, and that person bent the rules for me, and issued her one, only under the stipulation that I would sign a release form ''vouching'' for her.

 

I did have a BC once. Though it was completely different looking from what the state accepts these days. However I was pre-1999 obtain both an ID and passport and kept them renewed without issue. However due to some circumstances, my BC was lost/destroyed. A photocopy of it was not accepted, me showing a valid passport was not accepted at the DMV as further proof either. BC or nothing. I went back to the office though, and because I still had a valid passport, this was the only way they were able to issue me a new BC.

 

There are many reasons why obtaining IDs are not a simple process. And there are many reasons why obtaining BCs are not either. The elderly, the poor, those born in southern states pre and post segregation, home births, no record of births, lost or destroyed documents, those that were born into religious families that kept them completely ''off-grid'' (a subject I am quite passionate about.. kids that have to go through many years worth of ordeals just to prove that they exist in court hearings and go through multiple state/federal agencies), those from PR who had all BC invalidated pre-2010, those that are homeless or have had difficult living situations before getting better, those that suffered theft, loss, disasters, or fires.

 

Our Constitution says the right to vote should not be infringed. ID laws or more inherently state hoops can do that with unintended consequences. There have been many studies on this very subject and the elderly, and there have been many widely reported cases too. Our elders go to vote and are turned away because they don't realize, or they were not able to obtain their documents, or had no one to help them so they gave up. And I do agree, it seems a no brainer that an ID be given to vote, but there has to be a better way that makes it fair for a person to obtain one. Everyone seems to have a SSN (well except for the ''off-grid'' kids I mentioned) and accepted the government issuing such a number, but no one seemed to want to except an ID from the government in the same way. It was called a dangerous privacy invasion, and yet we know so many other countries where voting is a fairly easy streamlined process. According to some statistics 20 million potentially eligible voters do not have an ID. They continue to live their daily lives without needing one. At some point it may become difficult for them to correct that situation. Some 18% aged 65 and over don't have an ID, and may have difficulties obtaining a BC. This increases within other groups too. I can see this problem actually growing bigger now that flying domestically may require a different type of ID or even passport, at least in those that could manage to previously travel. In 2016 one estimate stated that some 50,000 persons already registered to vote or used to be able to vote, now couldn't do so because they lacked an ID or access to a BC. Texas attempted to help persons without an ID by issuing an EIC, however this still required documents that much like an ID requirement, may have been difficult to obtain. Still, Texas didn't hand out very many of these EICs compared to the number of those still unable to obtain them, and additionally the Texas Observer investigated 46 counties, and discovered those in charge either didn't know what an EIC was and would not recognize them. In other states with these type of ''help'', the results were similar.

We have spoken before?  Sorry, due to my early-onset Alzheimer’s, I may have forgotten.  This is how I make new friends daily!  😜

 

No, I don’t remember.  So much more to life than this forum that I have to memorize, so forgive my tired old brain.

 

What you detailed cannot be the norm, anywhere.  I still have my original BC, torn, on some sort of foil paper.  It has seen better days, torn a bit, but still legible.  However, just to see if I experienced the pain you did in obtaining a copy, I went to vitalchek.com and ordered a replacement.  Took me about 4 minutes of several pages of entries, $28 to the state, $9 to vitalchek, free shipping via regular mail (expedited was available for about $19), and voila, I had a birth certificate replacement on the way.  While I feel for your situation, where people don’t have a birth certificate, this cannot be the norm in the US.  All I had to provide in the way of ID was the full names of myself and my parents.  Nothing more.  No DL, no other form of ID.

[Randyandyuni 2,682]

53 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

We have spoken before?  Sorry, due to my early-onset Alzheimer’s, I may have forgotten.  This is how I make new friends daily!  😜

 

No, I don’t remember.  So much more to life than this forum that I have to memorize, so forgive my tired old brain.

 

What you detailed cannot be the norm, anywhere.  I still have my original BC, torn, on some sort of foil paper.  It has seen better days, torn a bit, but still legible.  However, just to see if I experienced the pain you did in obtaining a copy, I went to vitalchek.com and ordered a replacement.  Took me about 4 minutes of several pages of entries, $28 to the state, $9 to vitalchek, free shipping via regular mail (expedited was available for about $19), and voila, I had a birth certificate replacement on the way.  While I feel for your situation, where people don’t have a birth certificate, this cannot be the norm in the US.  All I had to provide in the way of ID was the full names of myself and my parents.  Nothing more.  No DL, no other form of ID.

My experience as well

[yuna628 9,717]

48 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

We have spoken before?  Sorry, due to my early-onset Alzheimer’s, I may have forgotten.  This is how I make new friends daily!  😜

 

No, I don’t remember.  So much more to life than this forum that I have to memorize, so forgive my tired old brain.

 

What you detailed cannot be the norm, anywhere.  I still have my original BC, torn, on some sort of foil paper.  It has seen better days, torn a bit, but still legible.  However, just to see if I experienced the pain you did in obtaining a copy, I went to vitalchek.com and ordered a replacement.  Took me about 4 minutes of several pages of entries, $28 to the state, $9 to vitalchek, free shipping via regular mail (expedited was available for about $19), and voila, I had a birth certificate replacement on the way.  While I feel for your situation, where people don’t have a birth certificate, this cannot be the norm in the US.  All I had to provide in the way of ID was the full names of myself and my parents.  Nothing more.  No DL, no other form of ID.

Eh life happens.

 

At the time I went through this in these cases, vitalchek was not an option. The only option was to go into the vital records office of the county you reside in and beg for mercy?  Of course when it comes to births not registered, and I suspect this is the case with my dad, it's a whole other ball of wax. But I might give it a shot with vitalchek for him, just in case. The DVR is one state agency I loathe just as much as the DMV. It all sounds so simple in the instructions, and then you get there... where they have no provisions for people who just don't have the things they think 'normal' people should have. It's not the norm for a lot of people I'm sure, but statistically it is the norm for a bunch of groups of people and in that way it does affect those people who once had the ability to vote just fine, or want to vote in the future.. it's a problem. I don't want it to be a problem for anyone. Pre-80s here, a lot of people did not receive a BC, but another document that looks similar (there was no ordered structure either.. they all look different). These were accepted by the state for years with no problems, and I have no idea why they still can't be, it would be a lot more helpful to some older folks. My own original BC, looked very different than the certified copies we receive today. It was a tiny thing and I think if I even had it and tried to use it, they'd reject it too.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

2 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

I seem to remember the Dems taking a pretty hardline on most things during the Obama years as well.  Pretty hard to compromise with a group that believes they are always right and their position should not bend at all. 

The Republicans didn’t vote for anything the Dems and Obama proposed. Remember how long that stretch went on? 

[millefleur 5,047]

1 hour ago, yuna628 said:

At the time I went through this in these cases, vitalchek was not an option. The only option was to go into the vital records office of the county you reside in and beg for mercy?  Of course when it comes to births not registered, and I suspect this is the case with my dad, it's a whole other ball of wax. But I might give it a shot with vitalchek for him, just in case. The DVR is one state agency I loathe just as much as the DMV. It all sounds so simple in the instructions, and then you get there... where they have no provisions for people who just don't have the things they think 'normal' people should have. It's not the norm for a lot of people I'm sure, but statistically it is the norm for a bunch of groups of people and in that way it does affect those people who once had the ability to vote just fine, or want to vote in the future.. it's a problem. I don't want it to be a problem for anyone. Pre-80s here, a lot of people did not receive a BC, but another document that looks similar (there was no ordered structure either.. they all look different). These were accepted by the state for years with no problems, and I have no idea why they still can't be, it would be a lot more helpful to some older folks. My own original BC, looked very different than the certified copies we receive today. It was a tiny thing and I think if I even had it and tried to use it, they'd reject it too.

This is so crazy....had no idea BC's could be such a issue. What state are your referring to where this happens?

[Chris Duffy 1,257]

56 minutes ago, spookyturtle said:

The Republicans didn’t vote for anything the Dems and Obama proposed. Remember how long that stretch went on? 

How did they get ObamaCare to pass?

 

I didn't follow politics during the dark era of the Obama Presidency