False claims made by the media about immigration

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

The fantasy is your insistence that the law can always be changed by acting within the law.

isnt that what democracy is?

i personally dont want to live in anarchy... and if you wish to disregard one law, then why not disregard all of them?

you may not like what the majority of this country wants... i may not like it... but if its the majority, it wins (if its not relegated to the electoral college)

Oy. Talking in circles makes me dizzy.

[keltic 1]

Oy. Talking in circles makes me dizzy.

tell me about it

we simply disagree

[Alex+R 0]

After I read Gary say it was "dangerous thinking" to question the law or try to do something about it, I gave up on the idea that most people are able to differentiate between "right" and "legal." I guess something needs to be done in the public schools...

[one...two...tree 2,762]

After I read Gary say it was "dangerous thinking" to question the law or try to do something about it, I gave up on the idea that most people are able to differentiate between "right" and "legal." I guess something needs to be done in the public schools...

Holy #######...no kidding. Critical thinking should be a required, 12 year course.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

After I read Gary say it was "dangerous thinking" to question the law or try to do something about it, I gave up on the idea that most people are able to differentiate between "right" and "legal." I guess something needs to be done in the public schools...

Holy #######...no kidding. Critical thinking should be a required, 12 year course.

In school? Schools are all about inane rules that make no sense. No running in the hallways, why the fukc not? The hallways are EMPTY and im LATE FOR CLASS, you crazy b***h!!!!!

[keltic 1]

After I read Gary say it was "dangerous thinking" to question the law or try to do something about it, I gave up on the idea that most people are able to differentiate between "right" and "legal." I guess something needs to be done in the public schools...

the views of one poster can affect your faith so drastically?

i cant speak for gary... but as for myself, i guess by the definition above, i am a 'dangerous thinker' because there are plenty of things that i question... many things that are legal that i do not think are right... but, since i am not a vigilante, and would prefer to try to change laws by using proper channels, i must be so stupid as to think that all laws are right... or did the public schools fail me because i believe that certain laws are not only legal, but right?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

After I read Gary say it was "dangerous thinking" to question the law or try to do something about it, I gave up on the idea that most people are able to differentiate between "right" and "legal." I guess something needs to be done in the public schools...

Holy #######...no kidding. Critical thinking should be a required, 12 year course.

In school? Schools are all about inane rules that make no sense. No running in the hallways, why the fukc not? The hallways are EMPTY and im LATE FOR CLASS, you crazy b***h!!!!!

I remember my kindergarten teacher slapped me when I painted a rainbow that touched the ground (she wanted one that ended in the sky). Facist pig!

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

After I read Gary say it was "dangerous thinking" to question the law or try to do something about it, I gave up on the idea that most people are able to differentiate between "right" and "legal." I guess something needs to be done in the public schools...

Holy #######...no kidding. Critical thinking should be a required, 12 year course.

In school? Schools are all about inane rules that make no sense. No running in the hallways, why the fukc not? The hallways are EMPTY and im LATE FOR CLASS, you crazy b***h!!!!!

I remember my kindergarten teacher slapped me when I painted a rainbow that touched the ground (she wanted one that ended in the sky). Facist pig!

With teachers like that, is it any wonder so many of us turn out to worship authority and slavishly follow rules?

[keltic 1]

*scurries off to bed because it is nearly 11pm and i fear the rapping of a ruler on my knuckles if i am not there on time

[Fandango 1,439]

those facts are 'verified' by those groups to the best of their abilities with the stats available to them, sure... but they cant count the millions of undocumented illegal aliens... so, they can only be verified to a minimal degree... how did they verify what is not documented to be able to verify? their 'facts' are no more absolute than what the 'perpetuators' state

So then, the claim, undocumented immigrants kill 25 Americans a day is unverifiable at best - not to the least dishonest, yes?

Yeah, it's prolly more, lol

When you read the article carefully, I think it becomes clear that those claims are reached the same way most claims we come to accept as true are reached, while the faulty anti-immigrant claims come from illogical extrapolation or rumor. The only arguments about illegal immigration I see as relevant and unsolved are the economic questions. Most of the items I see suggest that we benefit from illegal labor through social security and most of the things I see that claim illegal immigrants are causing economic problems can only show correlation, not cause.

Clearly, it's easier write off the points the article makes in favor of the claims it tries to debunk if you already agree with those claims.

My thought process is this: how can we verify to the maximum about the effect of illegal immigrants if we don't know precisely how many there are? While some statistics can be ascertained from the illegals who commit crimes and are CAUGHT. Data can be retrieved from that.

Whether or not that's where the data has come from is anyone's guess...I'm assuming the figures weren't just plucked out of the sky, but I'm sure there can be some minimum statistics that can be gleaned.

The true extent can not be known until we know exactly how many are here and not just a guesstimate.

[GaryC 7]

Steven, you are telling me that you think our laws regarding people coming into this country are wrong. And you are also telling me that if you think a law is wrong it is OK to disregard it. So I have a question for you and I really want an honest answer. Why are you here on VJ? Why didn't you just fly Jinky and Job into Canada or Mexico and just walk them across? Aren't you being a hypocrite by following a law you think is wrong? Please tell me.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Steven, you are telling me that you think our laws regarding people coming into this country are wrong. And you are also telling me that if you think a law is wrong it is OK to disregard it. So I have a question for you and I really want an honest answer. Why are you here on VJ? Why didn't you just fly Jinky and Job into Canada or Mexico and just walk them across? Aren't you being a hypocrite by following a law you think is wrong? Please tell me.

Gary, here's where I think you're getting stuck. You believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that laws are instituted to impose morality. While some laws are grounded in morality (murder) their primary purpose is for civil order. With the case of our immigration laws, past, present and future, you'd be making a stretch to say they are based on morality.

The key element in the ongoing debate over illegal immigrants is that the very nature of them being here illegally is immoral and I see no moral implications. You can argue and say that a person who disregards the laws of the land is an immoral person, but I could give you examples in history when someone disregarded the laws at that time and in the minds of many are considered heroes, saints...Jesus purposely broke the law and was put to death for it.

Many people here have complained that it seems unfair for illegals to be granted temporary legal status when we have to go through the process and I at least can understand that sentiment (albeit it is shortsighted). Call it unfair if you will, but don't take your opinion that because Mexicans have crossed over our border illegally, they are in effect people who lack morals.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Steven_and_Jinky

[Sheriff Uling 3]

Yes! I meant, like the rest of us that are involved in the process. Most of these "criminals" will not be able to apply for visas on their own. In fact, if visa-overstays are sometimes denied, then these "criminals" for all intensive purposes should potentially be permanently denied access into the United States.

I think they are too separate issues. The millions of illegal immigrants came here, not for citizenship, but for economic reasons. Mexico is our neighbor. It's being blindsided to simply continue regarding them as outlaws running amok in this country instead of looking at the causes and reasonable solutions. I think granting them a temporary visa (particularly for those who've been working here for 10 years) is reasonable solution. Deportation isn't even an option. Then we should start offering work visas for low skilled workers. It's an economic problem that requires economic solutions.

Steven...

You've got my vote. Just tell me where to send the check.

I'm sorry. These "criminals" are here in the tune of 11 plus million. I would call that run amok. We all know that these "criminals" are primarily here for economic reasons, but who's responsible for that? America? Who's paying the price? Why can't they apply for visas like everyone else? It's illegal not to mention unfair to those who are awaiting entry into our great nation and to the American citizens. According to the vibe I'm getting from your post, the "criminals" are the victims and the American citizens are bad guys. You are right that we may not be able to get rid of these "criminals," but that does not mean that we should concede to "undocumented aliens" that willfully enter our great nation illegally.

Let me get this right, people come here illegally, and America works something out for illegals to stay after breaking the law. Huh? Being apart of our society is a privilege and not a right of passage for anyone. By providing amnesty for "illegal aliens" / "criminals" via a "work release program" / "work visas," this will set a precedence that I'm not confident that America should go down.

Cheers!!!

Sheriff Uling

p.s. - Hey my friend, I'm not trying to slam you. We just have different view points...

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

when slavery was abolished, it was done by changing the law and enforcing it...

Umm, no. That's not quite how it was done. It was, let we say, a much more turbulent and violent process than that.

Illegal immigration and slavery is not even close to comparable. Unless you're saying that the slaves actually chose to sneak into this country and then chose to stick around. They were brought here by force and treated much worse than anyone today can even imagine. That is morally wrong and there were many good reasons to abolish slavery even by force. The illegals can always leave. An important option the slaves did not quite have.

The ole' Apples and Oranges at work again.

[JoeMama 0]

when slavery was abolished, it was done by changing the law and enforcing it...

Umm, no. That's not quite how it was done. It was, let we say, a much more turbulent and violent process than that.

Illegal immigration and slavery is not even close to comparable. Unless you're saying that the slaves actually chose to sneak into this country and then chose to stick around. They were brought here by force and treated much worse than anyone today can even imagine. That is morally wrong and there were many good reasons to abolish slavery even by force. The illegals can always leave. An important option the slaves did not quite have.

The ole' Apples and Oranges at work again.

Abolishing slavery had the support of President Abraham Lincoln to end slavery. Now I wish Bush and our government would do the same thing regarding illegals in this country! Maybe we'd start to see a difference. Instead of upsetting rightful citizens. As far as a comparision of illegal immigration and slavery, slaves didn't have a government giving them maps, telling them how to sneak into America, and they certainly weren't sending their money back to their country of origin.

Edited May 23, 2007 by altimixdj