False claims made by the media about immigration

[Fandango 1,439]

That article is tripe.

For the 'myth' that IA are lowering wages...the simple fact that the businesses are breaking the law to hire them should be proof enough that they're saving money.

Or else they wouldn't be risking it, duh.

[Fandango 1,439]

I have a question for you guys.

Why this bill, why now? What's the urgency?

We've had illegals since the last amnesty for 20 years and no-one complained

(well, people complained but who's listening?)

Why has this issue suddenly become a political hot potato?

Why not just leave the illegals the hell alone (for now) and concentrate on

1) securing the border, and

2) cracking down on employers hiring illegals?

When 1) and 2) are done, THEN start talking about comprehensive

immigration reforms and such.

Completely agreed.

1 & 2 are the priority.

It's a hot political issue because Bush is manipulating it to steer attn away from the war. We won't get into the war cos I'm sick of talking about it....and yes, I'm pretty much a Repub, but at the end of the day, all politicians are shysters who manipulate the American people, so I'm afraid this is nothing more than 'wag the dog' mentality. On BOTH sides really.

[Fandango 1,439]

one of the problems with the stats of the 'facts' posted are they cant be verified... simply because there are millions of UNDOCUMENTED illegal aliens... that means you cant count them... you cant tell how many jobs they are taking... you cant tell how many of them are even bothering to try to put any money in taxes or social security... how do they do that when they are paid cash under the table?? what about the monies used to care for childbirth of multiple children and their schooling? they are technically citizens, but havent put any money into the system... and wont for at least 18 yrs or so...

this also addresses latinos... what about the illegals from other countries as well? mexico is not the only country that ppl are coming here from... what about china, vietnam, multiple african countries, etc?

and leprosy and malaria are the diseases that are discounted... how is HIV contained? do the illegal immigrants not have relationships? how many couples here have one partner that was/is illegal? did they get tested before sleeping with a USC? do they never get injured and spill blood? how bout TB? how bout hepatitis A, B, or C? how can we track it since they are undocumented???

i dont buy those 'FACTS'

im sorry, steven... most things we agree upon, but from where i work and what i see, i just cant buy it

Dingdingding!!!!!!!!!!

Johnny, tell her what she's won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Our fiance(e)s have all had blood tests to enter...dunno about K-3s? But prolly them too. anyways, how many illegal had the old 'my hands are cold and can ya cough for me?' inspection complete with bloodwork before coming in?

We don't even know their names, let alone their health status.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I have a question for you guys.

Why this bill, why now? What's the urgency?

We've had illegals since the last amnesty for 20 years and no-one complained

(well, people complained but who's listening?)

Why has this issue suddenly become a political hot potato?

Why not just leave the illegals the hell alone (for now) and concentrate on

1) securing the border, and

2) cracking down on employers hiring illegals?

When 1) and 2) are done, THEN start talking about comprehensive

immigration reforms and such.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

one of the problems with the stats of the 'facts' posted are they cant be verified...

Those facts are verified by the stated groups or agencies. I'm a bit surprised you can't see what's happening here - on one end you have information fed to the media that reports that information (see above 'claims') as fact. What this list has done is demonstrated that what is being fed to the populace as factual information from reliable sources is a fallacy. At the very least, the media should be doing a better job of checking it's sources.

Go back and look at the list...

National Academy of Sciences

Public Policy Institute of California

Pew Hispanic Center

University of California economist Giovanni Peri

Congressional Budget Office

How verifiable do want to get?

those facts are 'verified' by those groups to the best of their abilities with the stats available to them, sure... but they cant count the millions of undocumented illegal aliens... so, they can only be verified to a minimal degree... how did they verify what is not documented to be able to verify? their 'facts' are no more absolute than what the 'perpetuators' state

So then, the claim, undocumented immigrants kill 25 Americans a day is unverifiable at best - not to the least dishonest, yes?

[Fandango 1,439]

those facts are 'verified' by those groups to the best of their abilities with the stats available to them, sure... but they cant count the millions of undocumented illegal aliens... so, they can only be verified to a minimal degree... how did they verify what is not documented to be able to verify? their 'facts' are no more absolute than what the 'perpetuators' state

So then, the claim, undocumented immigrants kill 25 Americans a day is unverifiable at best - not to the least dishonest, yes?

Yeah, it's prolly more, lol

[keltic 1]

i mentioned this in another thread and got no response...

my 8 yr old now has to be immunized against hepatitis A... this is a new thing... hepatitis A is a disease that we havent typically seen here in the US...

HAV is shed in the feces of persons with HAV infection. Transmission can occur through direct person-to-person contact; through exposure to contaminated water, ice, or shellfish harvested from sewage-contaminated water; or from fruits, vegetables, or other foods that are eaten uncooked and that were contaminated during harvesting or subsequent handling.

HAV infection is common (high or intermediate endemicity) throughout the developing world, where infections most frequently are acquired during early childhood and usually are asymptomatic or mild. In developed countries, HAV infection is less common (low endemicity), but communitywide outbreaks still occur in some areas of the United States. Map 4-4 indicates the seroprevalence of antibody to HAV (total anti-HAV) as measured in selected cross-sectional studies among each country's residents.

Hepatitis A vaccine, immune globulin (IG), or both, are recommended for all susceptible persons traveling to or working in countries with an intermediate or high endemicity of HAV infection. Health-care providers should administer hepatitis A vaccination for persons traveling for any purpose, frequency or duration to countries that have high or intermediate endemicity of HAV infection. In addition, health-care providers should be alert to opportunities to provide vaccination for all travelers whose plans might include travel at some time in the future to an area of high or intermediate endemicity, including those whose current medical evaluation is for travel to an area where hepatitis A vaccination is not currently recommended.

.......

No specific treatment is available for persons with hepatitis A. Treatment is supportive.

CDC resource for above info

so, if this is a disease from developing countries and not really prevalent here... why is it that children are now recommended by the AAP to get this vaccine, since all children are not travelling to those countries? could it be because it is being brought here?

why is it so bad to want to protect ourselves from diseases that we have been able to nearly eradicate in this country?

reform immigration... but do it so that it is fair to the USCs... and for gods sake (or whomever matters to you), enforce the laws we have that are to protect us... there is a reason they are there...

one of the problems with the stats of the 'facts' posted are they cant be verified...

Those facts are verified by the stated groups or agencies. I'm a bit surprised you can't see what's happening here - on one end you have information fed to the media that reports that information (see above 'claims') as fact. What this list has done is demonstrated that what is being fed to the populace as factual information from reliable sources is a fallacy. At the very least, the media should be doing a better job of checking it's sources.

Go back and look at the list...

National Academy of Sciences

Public Policy Institute of California

Pew Hispanic Center

University of California economist Giovanni Peri

Congressional Budget Office

How verifiable do want to get?

those facts are 'verified' by those groups to the best of their abilities with the stats available to them, sure... but they cant count the millions of undocumented illegal aliens... so, they can only be verified to a minimal degree... how did they verify what is not documented to be able to verify? their 'facts' are no more absolute than what the 'perpetuators' state

So then, the claim, undocumented immigrants kill 25 Americans a day is unverifiable at best - not to the least dishonest, yes?

it is as dishonest as the "verified facts" presented by the other side

[keltic 1]

I have a question for you guys.

Why this bill, why now? What's the urgency?

We've had illegals since the last amnesty for 20 years and no-one complained

(well, people complained but who's listening?)

Why has this issue suddenly become a political hot potato?

Why not just leave the illegals the hell alone (for now) and concentrate on

1) securing the border, and

2) cracking down on employers hiring illegals?

When 1) and 2) are done, THEN start talking about comprehensive

immigration reforms and such.

Completely agreed.

1 & 2 are the priority.

It's a hot political issue because Bush is manipulating it to steer attn away from the war. We won't get into the war cos I'm sick of talking about it....and yes, I'm pretty much a Repub, but at the end of the day, all politicians are shysters who manipulate the American people, so I'm afraid this is nothing more than 'wag the dog' mentality. On BOTH sides really.

i agree with most of this... however, if there is legislation being pushed thru the senate/congress that grants amnesty to all those illegals at the expense of family-based immigration, as well as the welfare of USCs, they why should there NOT be a sense of urgency?

[Alex+R 0]

those facts are 'verified' by those groups to the best of their abilities with the stats available to them, sure... but they cant count the millions of undocumented illegal aliens... so, they can only be verified to a minimal degree... how did they verify what is not documented to be able to verify? their 'facts' are no more absolute than what the 'perpetuators' state

So then, the claim, undocumented immigrants kill 25 Americans a day is unverifiable at best - not to the least dishonest, yes?

Yeah, it's prolly more, lol

When you read the article carefully, I think it becomes clear that those claims are reached the same way most claims we come to accept as true are reached, while the faulty anti-immigrant claims come from illogical extrapolation or rumor. The only arguments about illegal immigration I see as relevant and unsolved are the economic questions. Most of the items I see suggest that we benefit from illegal labor through social security and most of the things I see that claim illegal immigrants are causing economic problems can only show correlation, not cause.

Clearly, it's easier write off the points the article makes in favor of the claims it tries to debunk if you already agree with those claims.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

those facts are 'verified' by those groups to the best of their abilities with the stats available to them, sure... but they cant count the millions of undocumented illegal aliens... so, they can only be verified to a minimal degree... how did they verify what is not documented to be able to verify? their 'facts' are no more absolute than what the 'perpetuators' state

So then, the claim, undocumented immigrants kill 25 Americans a day is unverifiable at best - not to the least dishonest, yes?

Yeah, it's prolly more, lol

When you read the article carefully, I think it becomes clear that those claims are reached the same way most claims we come to accept as true are reached, while the faulty anti-immigrant claims come from illogical extrapolation or rumor. The only arguments about illegal immigration I see as relevant and unsolved are the economic questions. Most of the items I see suggest that we benefit from illegal labor through social security and most of the things I see that claim illegal immigrants are causing economic problems can only show correlation, not cause.

Clearly, it's easier write off the points the article makes in favor of the claims it tries to debunk if you already agree with those claims.

Well said.

[keltic 1]

Most of the items I see suggest that we benefit from illegal labor through social security and most of the things I see that claim illegal immigrants are causing economic problems can only show correlation, not cause.

i still dont understand how ppl can continue thinking that illegal immigrants are all putting monies into social security when a vast majority of them work for cash under the table... why would anyone think they are going to pay taxes on something they dont have to report? has anyone here ever waited tables and had to claim tips? if so, did you always claim every single penny you made?

and the ppl claiming that illegal immigrants are a benefit can only show correlation as well

Edited May 22, 2007 by keltic

[mawilson 2,133]

i agree with most of this... however, if there is legislation being pushed thru the senate/congress that grants amnesty to all those illegals at the expense of family-based immigration, as well as the welfare of USCs, they why should there NOT be a sense of urgency?

Yes, of course, a sense of urgency for us.

I was questioning their motives in trying to push this bill through Congress as quickly as possible.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Illegal border crossers:

1. are not inspected

2. do not undergo a medical exam

3. do not undergo a criminal background check

Spin that however you want.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

I took an Asbestos supervisors class last week. Most of the workers now are Hispanic (our Hispanic instructor said) and they pay $16 an hour for an asbestos laborer. He said the starting wages in 1984 were $14 an hour. Hispanics are willing to work under unsafe conditions (he said) because they don't want to lose their job.

example: warm water for showers is a requirement but if there is none they will just not shower after coming out of an asbestos area. The Hispanics won't speak up. Have fun with that asbestoses and lung cancer Just don't contaminate your family or the community.

[Alex+R 0]

Most of the items I see suggest that we benefit from illegal labor through social security and most of the things I see that claim illegal immigrants are causing economic problems can only show correlation, not cause.

i still dont understand how ppl can continue thinking that illegal immigrants are all putting monies into social security when a vast majority of them work for cash under the table... why would anyone think they are going to pay taxes on something they dont have to report? has anyone here ever waited tables and had to claim tips? if so, did you always claim every single penny you made?

and the ppl claiming that illegal immigrants are a benefit can only show correlation as well

Sure they do. That's why I see that issue as unresolved. What we "know" is that if illegal immigrants are costing us, they are costing us because they make low wages. The number of ITINs given has soared in the past few years. If I made little money, I'd file my taxes, knowing I'd get something back for it. We know illegal immigrant families use less than half the social services of USCs and mostly only for the care of their USC children. So while they may be a cost to us, it would be only because of their low wages, which is an entirely different issue.