False claims made by the media about immigration

[GaryC 7]

Gary, here's where I think you're getting stuck. You believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that laws are instituted to impose morality. While some laws are grounded in morality (murder) their primary purpose is for civil order. With the case of our immigration laws, past, present and future, you'd be making a stretch to say they are based on morality.

The key element in the ongoing debate over illegal immigrants is that the very nature of them being here illegally is immoral and I see no moral implications. You can argue and say that a person who disregards the laws of the land is an immoral person, but I could give you examples in history when someone disregarded the laws at that time and in the minds of many are considered heroes, saints...Jesus purposely broke the law and was put to death for it.

Many people here have complained that it seems unfair for illegals to be granted temporary legal status when we have to go through the process and I at least can understand that sentiment (albeit it is shortsighted). Call it unfair if you will, but don't take your opinion that because Mexicans have crossed over our border illegally, they are in effect people who lack morals.

Ok, I will correct you. No, not all laws are to enforce morality. Our laws regarding who enters our country are about protecting our borders and by extension our people. I am sure you going to say that the ones here illegally are no threat but that is where you are wrong. The real truth is WE DON'T KNOW WHO IS HERE!!! Along with the 20 million gate crashers are drug dealers, criminals (ones that even you would call criminals) and organized crime gangs. Along with that there are also those that want to harm us (terrorists). Without control of our borders the fact is we have no idea who is here. This isn't about morality this is about protecting ourselves. You just don't want to admit that and that is where you are dead wrong.

I have no problem with people coming in to work as long as they do it legally It's the illegal ones that cause me to get upset.

In closing I want to say THIS ISN'T A MORAL ISSUE. IT'S A LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE!!!

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

If you follow such a literal interpretation then anyone who breaks the law is a criminal (see motorists who speed, run a stop sign) and yet nobody is talking about speeding motorists as ones who thumb their nose at the law - do you see the difference? The implication is that because they have broken a single immigration law, they are of the criminal mindset. Do you believe that?

I'll use another example: O'Reilly is notorious for calling people a 'Liar'. The connotation is that the person is untrustworthy - incapable of ever telling the truth. Clinton was labelled a 'Liar' because he lied about his sexual escapades. Again, it's thinking in absolutes...if one tells a lie, they must be a liar.

BS They Broke AFEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAW, AND CONTINUE TO BREAK LOCAL STATE LAWS, ID Theft, Fraud, Tax evasion all these are crimes punsihiable by prision.

It is Terrorism and Defiance of our nations laws , not only do they break these laws intentionally they COMPROMISE The safety of our nation, 6 Terrorists involved in 9/11 entered illegally from the Southern Border.

IT IS NOT interpretation it is FACT.

Speeding is a violation of Motor Vehicle law and when people are knowingly speeding they are punished, why ios that these illegal Criminals feel they should be able to break they laws with out penalty, they are breaking Federal Laws.

These are criminals that do more than just cross the border to work, the commit drug ttrafficking, ID theft, vilent Crimes,

Terrorists! are troops should not be in Iraq they should be at the border where we ar ebeing invaded by the millions by Criminal Felons who are out to break laws, bring drugs & Violence to our streets.

Those who Advocate such criminal activity are no better than those who seek to destroy our nation 7 Way of life & should also be deported with the rest of the Criminal illegal Law breaking Scum bags.

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

In closing I want to say THIS ISN'T A MORAL ISSUE. IT'S A LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE!!!

EXACTLY! It is not about Human rights, No HUMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO COME INTO ANOTHER COUNTRY OCCUPY THAT COUNTRY, BREAK THOSE COUNTRIES LAWS, COMPROMISING THE SECURITY< HEALTH< EDUCATION AND FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY THEY ARE INVADING.

In any other nation of the world if a US citizen is found to have entered illegally and break other Govt. laws they would be punished strictly and deported after having spent time in prison or physical punishment.

These SCUM bags who call themselves Moral Human beings are nothing more than terrorists who only are after their own benefit without a care of who they harm or put at risk in the process.

They are undocumented illegal Criminals, since they are undocumented they do Not exist and therefore HAVE 0 RIGHTS to any benefits in our country.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Am I right in thinking that the act of crossing the border illegally (sans documentation) isn't classified as a "criminal offence" legally speaking..?

Be curious to hear from someone with a legal background.

I was under the impression it was a misdemeanor, not a "crime".

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

These SCUM bags who call themselves Moral Human beings are nothing more than terrorists

Hmmm... I'm no fan of illegal immigration, but seems a tad OTT to me.

[Jenn! 918]

I was under the impression it was a misdemeanor, not a "crime".

Some would say it's a felony. Apaarently there is no difference.

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

Am I right in thinking that the act of crossing the border illegally (sans documentation) isn't classified as a "criminal offence" legally speaking..?

Be curious to hear from someone with a legal background.

I was under the impression it was a misdemeanor, not a "crime".

Good question, I would bet it is a federal crime to Defraud the IRS, Steal ID's, Falsly submit fraudulent SS #'s to obtain employment.

And Even ILLEGALLY crossing a Countries Border.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Am I right in thinking that the act of crossing the border illegally (sans documentation) isn't classified as a "criminal offence" legally speaking..?

Be curious to hear from someone with a legal background.

I was under the impression it was a misdemeanor, not a "crime".

Good question, I would bet it is a federal crime to Defraud the IRS, Steal ID's, Falsly submit fraudulent SS #'s to obtain employment.

And Even ILLEGALLY crossing a Countries Border.

Yeah but there are usually strict legal definitions about what constitutes a criminal offence and what constitutes a misdemeanor. I'm not sure that illegal border crossing - while being illegal - is not strictly "criminal".

Associated activities such as benefit fraud and identity theft are separate to that.

[notrepetiteashley 0]

i mentioned this in another thread and got no response...

my 8 yr old now has to be immunized against hepatitis A... this is a new thing... hepatitis A is a disease that we havent typically seen here in the US...

Everyone at my high school was immunized for hepatitis A. That was in 1995. This is not a new thing.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The sole act of illegal entry is a misdemeanor as far as I know. Many of the infractions that follow (those folks don't sneak in to chill on the beach, you know), however, are not just misdemeanors.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The sole act of illegal entry is a misdemeanor as far as I know. Many of the infractions that follow (those folks don't sneak in to chill on the beach, you know), however, are not just misdemeanors.

Granted if we're talking about SS & benefit faud, identify theft etc.

I'm not sure "working illegally" is strictly criminal either.

[GaryC 7]

Am I right in thinking that the act of crossing the border illegally (sans documentation) isn't classified as a "criminal offence" legally speaking..?

Be curious to hear from someone with a legal background.

I was under the impression it was a misdemeanor, not a "crime".

Good question, I would bet it is a federal crime to Defraud the IRS, Steal ID's, Falsly submit fraudulent SS #'s to obtain employment.

And Even ILLEGALLY crossing a Countries Border.

Yeah but there are usually strict legal definitions about what constitutes a criminal offence and what constitutes a misdemeanor. I'm not sure that illegal border crossing - while being illegal - is not strictly "criminal".

Associated activities such as benefit fraud and identity theft are separate to that.

The trouble is that most of them engage in other illegal activities such as ID theft and fraud. Those are without a doubt criminal offenses. Working without permission is also a crime. Not reporting your wages to the IRS and SS are also crimes. The list goes on and on. Illegal entry is only the first violation.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The bottom line is, the US Constitution requires that Congress and the president act in accord with their DUTY to protect our borders and preserve our sovereignty. The appeasement and legalization of illegal aliens not only is in contradiction to that fundamantal duty, but plays directly into the hands of exploitive employers, big business, and the plans of the proponents of a North American Union to eliminate borders between the US, Mexico and Canada for purposed of fattening their wallets at our expense. By not doing what is required to maintain the divisions between legal and illegal presence on American soil, the leadership of this country is neglecting its sworn duty to uphold the Constitution, which does not call for cheapening the value of our citizenship and the rights it entitles us to.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The sole act of illegal entry is a misdemeanor as far as I know. Many of the infractions that follow (those folks don't sneak in to chill on the beach, you know), however, are not just misdemeanors.

Granted if we're talking about SS & benefit faud, identify theft etc.

I'm not sure "working illegally" is strictly criminal either.

In order to work illegally, you have to cheat Uncle Sam. And that ain't no misdemeanor.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Gary, here's where I think you're getting stuck. You believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that laws are instituted to impose morality. While some laws are grounded in morality (murder) their primary purpose is for civil order. With the case of our immigration laws, past, present and future, you'd be making a stretch to say they are based on morality.

The key element in the ongoing debate over illegal immigrants is that the very nature of them being here illegally is immoral and I see no moral implications. You can argue and say that a person who disregards the laws of the land is an immoral person, but I could give you examples in history when someone disregarded the laws at that time and in the minds of many are considered heroes, saints...Jesus purposely broke the law and was put to death for it.

Many people here have complained that it seems unfair for illegals to be granted temporary legal status when we have to go through the process and I at least can understand that sentiment (albeit it is shortsighted). Call it unfair if you will, but don't take your opinion that because Mexicans have crossed over our border illegally, they are in effect people who lack morals.

Ok, I will correct you. No, not all laws are to enforce morality. Our laws regarding who enters our country are about protecting our borders and by extension our people. I am sure you going to say that the ones here illegally are no threat but that is where you are wrong. The real truth is WE DON'T KNOW WHO IS HERE!!! Along with the 20 million gate crashers are drug dealers, criminals (ones that even you would call criminals) and organized crime gangs. Along with that there are also those that want to harm us (terrorists). Without control of our borders the fact is we have no idea who is here. This isn't about morality this is about protecting ourselves. You just don't want to admit that and that is where you are dead wrong.

I have no problem with people coming in to work as long as they do it legally It's the illegal ones that cause me to get upset.

In closing I want to say THIS ISN'T A MORAL ISSUE. IT'S A LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE!!!

Thank you, Gary. Then we both can agree that being here illegally doesn't equate them as lawless individuals or any other negative connotation that implies they lack moral character.

Here's some points I want to make:

There have been claims made that the illegal immigrants...

Bring more diseases

Rape and murder people (see Addie Goodvibrator's posts)

Disregard the laws/thumb their noses at our laws (what you've said)

This one I have to quote from one of Addie's posts because it's a whopper...

"ILLEGAL ALIENS knowingly break the law, create more poverty, more crime, murder, rape and steal, in addition to that they live in Clown houses multi families in one roof in violation of health 7 Building habitability codes turning anywhere they occupy into a 3rd world environment, they carry no auto, Health or any other kind of liability self sufficient insurance yet they like to steal and take from a system they are not derserving nor contribuitng to."

These are nothing but generalizations and stereotypes that play on xenophobia and in the case of Addie's outrageous statement above, demonstrate a form of prejudice to say the least.

This is what I've been eluding to in the previous threads... the debate over immigration keeps getting framed the same way with these inferences and generalization about the character of illegal aliens. In this country and in light of the principals and ideals of this country, I find that disturbing, especially when those who are overtly being prejudice (such as Addie), no one is calling them on it. Gary, I know you have a good character. We may disagree but I know you are always sincere in your convictions. I hope you can at least respect my argument here. That is all.