Working without pay during shutdown, more TSA agents are calling in sick

[refugee 169]

5 minutes ago, abum said:

even with FAIR's estimate, where on earth one managed to get 250bil? 

not on earth....

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

26 minutes ago, refugee said:

Thanks for providing the study.  The Cato institute claims the study is flawed and the actual cost is 3.3 to 15.6 Billion.  

 

https://www.cato.org/blog/fairs-fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-study-fatally-flawed

 

I didn't spend a long time looking at Cato's rebuttal, but the reasoning seems sound.  

I looked at Cato's study the other day when I was arguing with someone on Reddit. It lumps in both Illegal and Legal Immigrants so the cost is lower. That was my one big argument with that study otherwise it's very in depth.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Cyberfx1024

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

14 minutes ago, refugee said:

If only the Nancy and Chuck had jumped in to save the day before they owned the house..oh wait they tried: 

 

"“I am proud to shut down the government for border security,” Trump declared. “I will take the mantle,” he added as Schumer grinned. “I will be the one to shut it down. I’m not going to blame you for it.”

They did try to save the day BEHIND CLOSED DOORS and he pretty much said screw that let's do it in front of the cameras. If you saw the clip Pelosi keeps talking about doing it behind closed doors.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

33 minutes ago, abum said:

 

 

 

You seem to be pretty worked up over this shutdown.  I'm sure it affects you and your family, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.  It certainly is an uncertain time, if one is not properly prepared for a disaster.

 

Mind my asking... have you been asked to work without pay, or were you furloughed?

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

8 minutes ago, refugee said:

not on earth....

@abum I honestly don't know either. Sorry the kids just went to bed so I can argue more now.

[abum 324]

1 minute ago, ALFKAD said:

You seem to be pretty worked up over this shutdown.  I'm sure it affects you and your family, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.  It certainly is an uncertain time, if one is not properly prepared for a disaster.

 

Mind my asking... have you been asked to work without pay, or were you furloughed?

regardless of the potential answer to your questions, would my points be less relevant (do point out which one of the comments that would be moot point should i answer your question here)?

 

3 minutes ago, Cyberfx1024 said:

@abum I honestly don't know either. Sorry the kids just went to bed so I can argue more now.

okay, thank you for answering. if the impact is less than what the figure had stated, especially considering the overall cost of building the wall, and maintaining it in the long run, would those in favor of the wall would agree that the shutdown is unnecessary and cruel (PROUDLY done at that)? and maybe the President should retract on a lot of his false claims (rhetoric as well) especially related to the wall?

 

 

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

5 minutes ago, abum said:

Okay, thank you for answering. if the impact is less than what the figure had stated, especially considering the overall cost of building the wall, and maintaining it in the long run, would those in favor of the wall would agree that the shutdown is unnecessary and cruel (PROUDLY done at that)? and maybe the President should retract on a lot of his false claims (rhetoric as well) especially related to the wall?

I think the wall would pay for itself in the long run in all honesty. I really do feel like that. 

[refugee 169]

20 minutes ago, Cyberfx1024 said:

@abum I honestly don't know either. Sorry the kids just went to bed so I can argue more now.

you should have feed the kids whiskey hours ago, puts them right to sleep. 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

8 minutes ago, abum said:

regardless of the potential answer to your questions, would my points be less relevant (do point out which one of the comments that would be moot point should i answer your question here)?

 

Other than blaming Trump alone for the debacle, I do not disagree with most of what you've said about the shutdown.  It at least scares people, adding stress to anyone who is affected.   I have been there, I had to go to work anyway,  so I know what I felt like (back in history,  when you weren't affected; I was, as were many of my colleagues).  So I tend to empathize with those affected.  

 

I simply asked because we here in CEHST are a pretty small group, and regardless of differences of opinion on politics, it never hurts to try and put oneself in someone else's shoes to better understand their POV.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

14 minutes ago, abum said:

 

okay, thank you for answering. if the impact is less than what the figure had stated, especially considering the overall cost of building the wall, and maintaining it in the long run, would those in favor of the wall would agree that the shutdown is unnecessary and cruel (PROUDLY done at that)? and maybe the President should retract on a lot of his false claims (rhetoric as well) especially related to the wall?

 

 

What are your estimates on the cost of maintaining a wall?

 

 

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

19 minutes ago, refugee said:

you should have feed the kids whiskey hours ago, puts them right to sleep. 

Actually we moved back their bed time from 8pm back to 7 or 7:30pm to give my wife and I more free time, also our 2 year old loves to play with her older sister at bedtime. So it allows her time to wind down alittle. 

 

Edit. I can send you the link to the reddit thread where I spent a few hours discussing this very same thing if you want. I doubt you want to read it but just trying to show that we did debate it.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Cyberfx1024

[yuna628 9,758]

10 minutes ago, Cyberfx1024 said:

I think the wall would pay for itself in the long run in all honesty. I really do feel like that. 

Here's a question I'm hoping you can answer.

 

A lot of us here, might agree that in the days after 911, the US did a lot of things they 'told us' were in our best interests and out of a grave crisis to protect us so they said. A lot of people believed what was said. Americans, after that day grew to accept a lot of invasions into our private lives, our way of business and travel, until we have reached the point of now. We have a TSA that can be abusive, costly, and literally nothing more than security theater. Experts back then said the same as much as they do now, that the TSA is fairly useless in stopping threats, is intrusive, not cost effective, and often creates travel chaos. Indeed, not just the TSA but a lot of other security features we grew to accept in the 'public interest'. Americans accepted, not just one, but two wars - which has launched the middle east into chaos and the world into a crisis of new type of diaspora. We lost a lot of freedoms that day and months to come, a lot of lives, money, and impacts on future generations.

 

Now you believe this wall will be effective, will pay for itself, will be successful - and that any benefit will outweigh further risks, consequences, financials, and problems that could (and imo will) arise. Experts say that this is relatively much like the TSA in a physical security theater form. I believe that. I believe it is costly, stupid, expensive, will likely violate a lot of laws to get it done, and will prove to not be as effective as you wish. A wall does not address the massive issues that surround immigration, does not address the main causes of illegal immigration and thus far, beyond a physical structure as a solution to address 'one problem', does not even attempt to fix the rest of the problems from the ground up. My question to you is: what if you're wrong?

 

You see we could start building a useless waste of a wall to nowhere, and let us say that it never gets finished because a new administration decides to go in a different direction. Let us say that it is entirely possible that it has little effect on the issue whatsoever. Let us say that the building of it becomes mired down in lawsuits involving eminent domain, property rights, constitutionality and so much more. I'm tired of debates about a physical structure vs a metaphorical one. And I'm tired at seeing good taxpaying workers suffer because they are being used as pawns.

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

3 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Here's a question I'm hoping you can answer.

 

A lot of us here, might agree that in the days after 911, the US did a lot of things they 'told us' were in our best interests and out of a grave crisis to protect us so they said. A lot of people believed what was said. Americans, after that day grew to accept a lot of invasions into our private lives, our way of business and travel, until we have reached the point of now. We have a TSA that can be abusive, costly, and literally nothing more than security theater. Experts back then said the same as much as they do now, that the TSA is fairly useless in stopping threats, is intrusive, not cost effective, and often creates travel chaos. Indeed, not just the TSA but a lot of other security features we grew to accept in the 'public interest'. Americans accepted, not just one, but two wars - which has launched the middle east into chaos and the world into a crisis of new type of diaspora. We lost a lot of freedoms that day and months to come, a lot of lives, money, and impacts on future generations.

 

Now you believe this wall will be effective, will pay for itself, will be successful - and that any benefit will outweigh further risks, consequences, financials, and problems that could (and imo will) arise. Experts say that this is relatively much like the TSA in a physical security theater form. I believe that. I believe it is costly, stupid, expensive, will likely violate a lot of laws to get it done, and will prove to not be as effective as you wish. A wall does not address the massive issues that surround immigration, does not address the main causes of illegal immigration and thus far, beyond a physical structure as a solution to address 'one problem', does not even attempt to fix the rest of the problems from the ground up. My question to you is: what if you're wrong?

 

You see we could start building a useless waste of a wall to nowhere, and let us say that it never gets finished because a new administration decides to go in a different direction. Let us say that it is entirely possible that it has little effect on the issue whatsoever. Let us say that the building of it becomes mired down in lawsuits involving eminent domain, property rights, constitutionality and so much more. I'm tired of debates about a physical structure vs a metaphorical one. And I'm tired at seeing good taxpaying workers suffer because they are being used as pawns.

I would like to say this before I start on the rest: As always I know we don't see eye to eye on alot of things but you are a fairly eloquent writer. 

 

I can't agree with you more on alot of this first paragraph to be honest with you. As someone who has been to both Iraq and Afghanistan not to mention lost some friends in both countries this is a hard one to stomach but it's true. We should have been out of Afghanistan a decade ago at best. Iraq is a completely different story that I will delve in to at a later date. 

 

I do not think it will violate any laws during it's construction. I would like to hear what laws do you think it will violate? I do think it help deal with alot of illegal immigration or just people coming across the Southern border due to it being a so porous. It may not be along the whole border and that is fine, but it will be along a large part of it and will help funnel people into whatever open sections there will be. 

 

Quite frankly I am tired of people from both parties that do not want to do any serious measures against illegal immigration or fake asylum claims. Nobody wants to be seen as "to hard" on those coming across these days because the term "Racist" is thrown around so loosely nowadays. There is obviously a serious problem going on and nobody wants to do any damn thing about it. 

You have RINOs on the right beholden to big business who wants the cheap labor from illegals and H1b holders. Then you have the Dems who want to cater to illegals and the future votes that amnesty would bring them. 

[TBoneTX 46,448]

4 hours ago, yuna628 said:

lawsuits involving eminent domain, property rights

Haven't heard of anyone in Texas who got anything close to a fair deal when their land was essentially stolen.

Build the wall where private property won't be affected, and use other methods where it WILL be affected.

Use other methods where terrain precludes a physical wall.

[Chris Duffy 1,257]

2 hours ago, TBoneTX said:

Haven't heard of anyone in Texas who got anything close to a fair deal when their land was essentially stolen.

Build the wall where private property won't be affected, and use other methods where it WILL be affected.

Use other methods where terrain precludes a physical wall.

I have heard of many getting fair or more, but of course you had to retain lawyer.  One of my hunting buddies specializes in this