Lebanese army is cleaning house!

[GaryC 7]

TRIPOLI, Lebanon -

Lebanese troops pounded a Palestinian refugee camp with artillery and tank fire for a second day Monday, raising huge palls of smoke as they battled a militant group suspected of ties to al-Qaida in the worst eruption of violence since the end of the 1975-90 civil war.

Nearly 50 combatants were killed in the first day of fighting on Sunday, but it was not known how many civilians have been killed inside the Nahr el-Bared camp on the outskirts of the northern port city of Tripoli, the scene of the worst violence.

Palestinian officials in the camp reported at least nine civilians were killed Monday, along with 40 wounded. The figures could not be confirmed because emergency workers or security officials have not been able to get in.

Black smoke engulfed the skies over the camp as fires raged and heavy gunfire and explosions rang out constantly. The fierce fighting resumed after a brief truce that allowed the evacuation of 18 wounded civilians, according to Saleh Badran, an official with the Palestinian Red Crescent Society.

The battle was an unprecedented showdown between the Lebanese army and militant groups that have arisen in Lebanon's Palestinian refugee camps, which are home to tens of thousands of people living amid poverty and crime and which Lebanese troops are not allowed to enter.

The troops were fighting a group called

Fatah Islam, whose leader has said he is inspired by al-Qaida leader

Osama bin Laden and was training militants to carry out attacks in other countries. Lebanese officials have also accused

Syria of using Fatah Islam to stir up trouble in Lebanon, a charge Damascus has denied.

Lebanese officials said one of the men killed Sunday was a suspect in a failed German train bombing — another indication the camp had become a refuge for Fatah Islam militants planning attacks outside of Lebanon. In the past, others affiliated with the group in the camp have said they were aiming to send trained fighters into

Iraq and the group's leader has been linked to al-Qaida in Iraq.

Hundreds of Lebanese army troops, backed by tanks and armored carriers, surrounded the refugee camp Monday. M-48 battle tanks unleashed their cannon fire on the camp, home to 30,000 Palestinian refugees. The militants fired mortars toward the troops at daybreak.

An army officer at the front line said troops directed concentrated fire at buildings known to house militants in the camp. He said troops also had orders to strike hard at any target that directed fire back at them.

"Everything we know that they were present in has been targeted," he told The Associated Press, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media.

A spokesman for Fatah Islam, Abu Salim, warned that if the army bombardment did not stop, the militants would step up attacks by rockets and artillery "and would take the battle outside Tripoli."

He did not elaborate on the threat, holding authorities responsible for the consequences.

"It is a life-or-death battle. Their aim is to wipe out Fatah Islam. We will respond and we know how to respond," he told the AP.

Earlier in the day, another refugee camp, Ein el-Hilweh in southern Lebanon, was tense after Lebanese troops surrounded it and armed militants went on alert.

At least 27 soldiers and 20 militants were killed Sunday, Lebanese security officials said. But they did not know how many civilians had been killed in the camp because it is off-limits to their authority.

Lebanon says it has no authority to enter the camps under understandings with the Palestinians that give the PLO the authority in the camps. But Lebanon also is believed to be leery of entering for fear that any such actions would cause widespread unrest, be very costly and could spark pan-Arab sympathy for the Palestinian refugees that would trigger a backlash against the country.

There were conflicting reports Monday about the arrangement of a truce that medical officials on the camp's edge said would allow the distribution of food and supplies and the evacuation of the wounded. Army officials said there was no cease-fire in place yet, but Hamas' Lebanon representative, Osama Hamdan, said an agreement was reached.

The clashes were triggered when police raided suspected Fatah Islam hideouts in several buildings in Tripoli, searching for men wanted in a recent bank robbery. A gunbattle erupted at one of the buildings between the group's fighters, and troops were called in to help the police.

Militants then burst out of the nearby refugee camp, seizing Lebanese army positions, capturing two armored vehicles and ambushing troops. Lebanese troops later laid siege to the refugee camp where Fatah Islam militants were believed to be hiding, unleashing fire from tanks, artillery and heavy machine guns.

It was unclear whether Lebanese authorities had known El-Hajdib's whereabouts, or the whereabouts of the group's leader, a Palestinian named Shaker al-Absi, before the gunbattle first broke out in Tripoli.

Al-Absi, wanted in three countries, told The New York Times in March that he was trying to spread al-Qaida's ideology and was training fighters inside the camp for attacks on other countries.

He would not specify which countries but expressed anger toward the United States. And he was sentenced to death earlier in absentia along with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq killed last summer by U.S. forces in Iraq, for the 2002 assassination of an American diplomat in Jordan.

Al-Absi had been in custody in Syria until last fall but was released and set up his group in the camp, where he apparently found recruits, Lebanese officials said.

Lebanon's national police commander, Maj. Gen. Ashraf Rifi, said Damascus was using the Fatah Islam group as a covert way to wreak havoc in the country. He denied Fatah Islam's al-Qaida links, saying it was a Syrian-bred group.

"Perhaps there are some deluded people among them but they are not al-Qaida. This is imitation al-Qaida, a 'Made in Syria' one," he told the AP.

Lebanese security officials said Fatah Islam has up to 100 members who come from Arab countries, including Saudi Arabia and Syria, as well as local sympathizers who belong to the conservative Salafi branch of Islam.

The Lebanese Broadcasting Corp. TV station reported the dead militants included men from Bangladesh, Yemen and other Arab countries. Some of those killed were wearing explosive belts, security officials said.

Officials identified the suspect in the failed German train bombing as Saddam El-Hajdib, the fourth-highest ranking official in the Fatah Islam group, an official said Monday. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media. El-Hajdib had been on trial in absentia in Lebanon in connection with the failed German plot.

Mohammed Hanafi, identified by Al-Jazeera as a human rights activist in the camp, said 34 people had been killed inside, including 14 civilians, and 150 wounded. But that could not be independently confirmed and other estimates of civilian deaths were lower.

Ahmed Methqal, a Muslim cleric in the camp, told Al-Jazeera that five civilians had been killed.

"You can say there is a massacre going on in the camp of children and women who have nothing to do with Fatah Islam," he said. "They are targeting buildings, with people in them. What's the guilt of children, women and the elderly?"

He said sniper fire had confined the camp's 30,000 residents to their houses.

Lebanon has struggled to defeat armed groups that control pockets of the country — especially inside the 12 Palestinian refugee camps housing 350,000 people, which Lebanese authorities can't enter.

Some camps have become havens for Islamic militants accused of carrying out attacks in the country and of sending recruits to fight U.S.-led coalition forces in Iraq.

Palestinian officials in the

West Bank sought to distance themselves from Fatah Islam and urged Palestinian refugees in the camp to isolate the militant group.

Palestinian officials who met Monday with Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said he was focused on saving lives and left it to him to decide whether to send the army into the camp.

"Entering the camp does not mean it will be easy to get rid of this (Fatah Islam) phenomenon," PLO representative Abbas Zaki warned.

Lebanese Sunni political and religious leaders backed the army and the government.

Lebanon was already in the midst of its worst political crisis between the Western-backed government and Hezbollah-led opposition since the end of the civil war. Saniora said Sunday the fighting was a "dangerous attempt at hitting Lebanese security."

Late Sunday, an explosion across the street from a busy shopping mall in the Christian sector of Beirut killed a 63-year-old woman and injured 12 other people, police said.

Beirut and its suburbs have seen a series of blasts in the last two years, many targeting Christian areas. Authorities blamed Fatah Islam for Feb. 13 bombings of commuter buses that killed three, but the group denied involvement.

Syria has denied involvement in any of the bombings.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070521/ap_on_...ebanon_violence

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Dunno - seems to me there's everything wrong with pounding civilian refugee camps with artillery, regardless of who you think is in there.

Not the first time its been done - and always with an obscene loss of life.

[GaryC 7]

Dunno - seems to me there's everything wrong with pounding civilian refugee camps with artillery, regardless of who you think is in there.

Not the first time its been done - and always with an obscene loss of life.

So if the terrorist hide among civilians the get a free pass? How would you handle it?

You do understand that the cowards do this on purpose to inflict civilian casualties to garner world sympathy. It's been their MO for a long time and unfortunately it works.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Dunno - seems to me there's everything wrong with pounding civilian refugee camps with artillery, regardless of who you think is in there.

Not the first time its been done - and always with an obscene loss of life.

So if the terrorist hide among civilians the get a free pass? How would you handle it?

You do understand that the cowards do this on purpose to inflict civilian casualties to garner world sympathy. It's been their MO for a long time and unfortunately it works.

Whether or not anyone thinks this is justified - the obvious fact is that very many civilians will die as a result of this, and will do little for the "peace" of the region.

I'm not going to celebrate or glorify it. Its just disgusting how cheap life is in deprived areas of the world. Its also disgusting that people feel the need to justify it. Very very few of us can imagine what life is like in one of those refugee camps - even without an armed threat hanging over your head.

[GaryC 7]

Dunno - seems to me there's everything wrong with pounding civilian refugee camps with artillery, regardless of who you think is in there.

Not the first time its been done - and always with an obscene loss of life.

So if the terrorist hide among civilians the get a free pass? How would you handle it?

You do understand that the cowards do this on purpose to inflict civilian casualties to garner world sympathy. It's been their MO for a long time and unfortunately it works.

Whether or not anyone thinks this is justified - the obvious fact is that very many civilians will die as a result of this, and will do little for the "peace" of the region.

I'm not going to celebrate or glorify it. Its just disgusting how cheap life is in deprived areas of the world. Its also disgusting that people feel the need to justify it. Very very few of us can imagine what life is like in one of those refugee camps - even without an armed threat hanging over your head.

So I ask again, how would you like to see it handled?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Dunno - seems to me there's everything wrong with pounding civilian refugee camps with artillery, regardless of who you think is in there.

Not the first time its been done - and always with an obscene loss of life.

So if the terrorist hide among civilians the get a free pass? How would you handle it?

You do understand that the cowards do this on purpose to inflict civilian casualties to garner world sympathy. It's been their MO for a long time and unfortunately it works.

Whether or not anyone thinks this is justified - the obvious fact is that very many civilians will die as a result of this, and will do little for the "peace" of the region.

I'm not going to celebrate or glorify it. Its just disgusting how cheap life is in deprived areas of the world. Its also disgusting that people feel the need to justify it. Very very few of us can imagine what life is like in one of those refugee camps - even without an armed threat hanging over your head.

So I ask again, how would you like to see it handled?

Well how would you like to see it handled? The same way disputes are handled in that part of the world have historically been handled no doubt - with lashings of innocent blood all in the name of the "greater good".

As I said, I'm not going to celebrate this. Personally I don't know enough about the makeup of those refugee camps, or the attitudes of the people who live in them to be able to make anything more than pedestrian statements about it. Its probably fair to say that its not cut and dried.

[GaryC 7]

Dunno - seems to me there's everything wrong with pounding civilian refugee camps with artillery, regardless of who you think is in there.

Not the first time its been done - and always with an obscene loss of life.

So if the terrorist hide among civilians the get a free pass? How would you handle it?

You do understand that the cowards do this on purpose to inflict civilian casualties to garner world sympathy. It's been their MO for a long time and unfortunately it works.

Whether or not anyone thinks this is justified - the obvious fact is that very many civilians will die as a result of this, and will do little for the "peace" of the region.

I'm not going to celebrate or glorify it. Its just disgusting how cheap life is in deprived areas of the world. Its also disgusting that people feel the need to justify it. Very very few of us can imagine what life is like in one of those refugee camps - even without an armed threat hanging over your head.

So I ask again, how would you like to see it handled?

Well how would you like to see it handled? The same way disputes are handled in that part of the world have historically been handled no doubt - with lashings of innocent blood all in the name of the "greater good".

As I said, I'm not going to celebrate this. Personally I don't know enough about the makeup of those refugee camps, or the attitudes of the people who live in them to be able to make anything more than pedestrian statements about it. Its probably fair to say that its not cut and dried.

If CNN and Fox News are to be believed this is a camp in Northern Lebanon. The reports say the Al-Qaeda has a serious presence there and they have been using it as a training camp for terrorists. This started when the police followed some bank robbers into the camp and were attacked. They claim that they have already killed a senior Al-Qaeda terrorist that they have been trying to track down. This isn't a Hamas camp that dot the southern border. Since I am not there I cannot say if any of this is fact or propaganda but at least the Lebanese government is claiming this. At this point it is an internal issue within Lebanon.

But that still leaves us with the original question. When a terrorist group hides in a civilian population how do we deal with it? The Hamas did this in the recent conflict with Israel and the tactic worked. So if they hide behind women and children do we let them win or do we do something about it? I really would like to hear your thoughts on what to do. I don't want to see innocent people killed either but if they choose to hide there the blood and the blame should be on the terrorists and not those that are trying to get them. They are giving us very few options.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm not so certain that the terrorists are "hiding behind" civilians, without making certain assumptions about those people in general.

Firstly – whether or not those people are (in general) sympathetic towards militant groups. If we’re taking a reasonable perspective here that a person who has just seen members of their family murdered and their house demolished – it probably isn’t too much of a stretch to imagine.

On that note – is it really fair to say that all of the alleged terrorists are actually members of, or linked to Al Qaeda? Usually what happens is that anyone who picks up a gun and shoots it at a soldier is deemed a terrorist regardless of their affiliations or motivations. The same is true of the Palestine situation in general. It’s not all fuelled by religious fundamentalism.

Moving soldiers into civilian camps and indiscriminate shelling isn't going to do much except create more hatred and resentment. Of course, thats nothing new in that part of world.

Out of curiosity - have you seen some of the media coverage from that part of the world? What's interesting is that they don't try to contextualise - whenever there is a event with a mass loss of life the focus is very specifically on the event itself, without any extenuating factors. They don't care about "hidden extremists", just the fact that X number of people are dead - and that Group Y dropped the bomb/pulled the trigger.

[mawilson 2,133]

Q&A: explaining the violence in Lebanon

Nick Blanford, correspondent for The Times in Lebanon, on the

background to the worst outbreak of the internal fighting in the

country for years

Who is fighting who?

The last two days of fighting in Lebanon have been between the Army and Fatah

al-Islam, one of the most feared militant groups in Lebanon's Palestinian refugee

camps. Fatah al-Islam is completely opposed by the main Palestinian groups in

Lebanon, like the PLO and Hamas, which have agreed to help the Government fight

the faction, which is seen as a force for chaos and a real menace in the camps,

where thousands of Palestinians live in poor, difficult conditions.

What is Fatah al-Islam?

Fatah al-Islam is a new and extremely dangerous group that appears to be part of

the nebulous, loose network of Sunni militants across the Middle East. It declared

itself as an organisation last November after breaking off from Fatah al-Initifada,

a larger, secular, pro-Syrian Palestinian movement and is led by Chaker al-Absi,

a Palestinian from Jordan with links to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the al Qaeda commander

killed last year in Iraq.

I was speaking to people close to the group in Tripoli on Saturday and they said

that most of its members were Palestinians, but others say it has fighters from all

over the Arab world. It is very hard to know, but it is possible that its members are

Palestinians from several countries: growing up in camps in Jordan and Saudi Arabia

or Lebanon, fighting in Iraq, spending a year or two in Syria and then ending up in

Lebanon.

What does the group want?

The precise origins of Fatah al-Islam, and so its aims, are a subject of controversy.

The Lebanese Army says the split with Fatah al-Initifada last year was entirely

orchestrated by the Syrian security forces and while the group's members may be

genuine Islamist extremists, it is being manipulated for the ends of the Syrian regime.

It believes the current violence, which began with ambushes and an attack on a

Lebanese military patrol in Tripoli yesterday was ordered to unsettle the country for

Syria's purposes. The other view, held by the opposition, is that the Government

blames every internal problem on Syria and that Fatah al-Islam are just a particularly

nasty faction. I am afraid it is as vague as that. Whatever their nationality, I was

speaking to a special forces captain today who said that Fatah al-Islam gunmen were

fighting to the end, some of them wearing explosive vests and none of them surrendering.

Where is the fighting happening?

The violence is in the north of Lebanon, where most of the country's Sunni population is,

and close to the Syrian border. Yesterday's gun battle was in Tripoli while today the

operation focused on the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp which is on the coast at the

northern outskirts of the city. The Lebanese Army say they have Fatah al-Islam

"hermetically sealed" in the camp and would be able to wipe them out, but entering the

crowded settlement is fraught with difficulties. Not only would an assault probably cause

heavy civilian casualties but Lebanon still abides by a 1969 UN agreement that the

country's 12 Palestinian refugee camps can largely govern themselves, officially in return

for the camps disarming their militants.

The Government is under some pressure to intervene in the camps, which are seen by

many Lebanese as poor and lawless and a breeding ground for terrorists. Many people

blame the Palestinians for contributing to the unrest that caused the 1975-1990 civil war

and the evolution of armed groups like Fatah al-Islam. Lebanese criminals also flee into

the camps, adding to sense of lawlessness, some of them joining these Islamist bands.

But the general consensus is that a solution for the camps and their problems will not be

found until some wider settlement is reached in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.

Is this part of a wider crisis?

The battle with Fatah al-Islam is in itself an isolated incident. There is a broad consensus

is that these are bad people and they must be got rid of. They do not have much support

beyond a few Sunnis in the north. But the violence does seem to verify a fear that

Lebanon is about to enter a period of instability.

We are heading for a climax in the attempt to prosecute the killers of Rafik al-Hariri, the

former prime minister assassinated in Beirut in 2004. The Lebanese Government, which

blames Syria for orchestrating the killing — a charge that Syria denies — has gone through

months of political tussling to apply to the UN Security Council to set up an international

tribunal and that could take shape in the coming weeks. There is a lot of doom and gloom

that if the tribunal goes ahead and the accusations against Syria continue there could be

a rash of instability: bombings, assassinations and unrest. There was also a large bomb

in east Beirut last night that killed two people in the first attack of its kind in many months.

People are drawing the conclusion that this could be the beginning of a hot summer.

Source

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Dunno - seems to me there's everything wrong with pounding civilian refugee camps with artillery, regardless of who you think is in there.

Not the first time its been done - and always with an obscene loss of life.

So if the terrorist hide among civilians the get a free pass? How would you handle it?

You do understand that the cowards do this on purpose to inflict civilian casualties to garner world sympathy. It's been their MO for a long time and unfortunately it works.

Whether or not anyone thinks this is justified - the obvious fact is that very many civilians will die as a result of this, and will do little for the "peace" of the region.

I'm not going to celebrate or glorify it. Its just disgusting how cheap life is in deprived areas of the world. Its also disgusting that people feel the need to justify it. Very very few of us can imagine what life is like in one of those refugee camps - even without an armed threat hanging over your head.

So I ask again, how would you like to see it handled?

An example on a significantly smaller scale... anti-government armed Sikhs (in India) holed up inside the Golden Temple, the holiest of Sikh temples. They holed up inside with civilians..women and children. The initial response of the Govt was a siege. Months passed, no food or water allowed in, nothing. The terrorists stayed in, with their hostages. Eventually the govt lost patience and trooped stepped in, defiled the holiest of Sikh places of worship. The ensuing gun battle killed all the terrorists and plenty of women and children who were hostages. The govt won this battle, the terrorists were evicted. But the consequence was almost a decade of civil-war in Punjab, incessant violence, government police, soldiers and paramilitaries slaughtered on a daily basis. In the end, the insurgency wore itself out, but it took close to a decade.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

kick some terrorist butt!!

[William33 110]

Insurgents and terrorists have historically "hidden" among the villagers.

If the villagers don't leave, as they obviously cannot push the armed insurgents/terrorists out, they become victims.

It sucks, but it is reality.

On the other side of the coin, collateral damage happpens.

If I were in the shoes of the "villager", and these azz holes took up shelter in my village, I would run like he!!.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Insurgents and terrorists have historically "hidden" among the villagers.

If the villagers don't leave, as they obviously cannot push the armed insurgents/terrorists out, they become victims.

It sucks, but it is reality.

On the other side of the coin, collateral damage happpens.

If I were in the shoes of the "villager", and these azz holes took up shelter in my village, I would run like he!!.

If the terrorists are smart, they won't let you. You're leverage.

In many of these situations, there is no possibility at all of a 'clean' victory. It comes down to a choice between retreat and tainted victory. If victory yields honor and no other tangible/strategic benefit, I lean towards retreat, however dishonorable that may seem.

[William33 110]

Insurgents and terrorists have historically "hidden" among the villagers.

If the villagers don't leave, as they obviously cannot push the armed insurgents/terrorists out, they become victims.

It sucks, but it is reality.

On the other side of the coin, collateral damage happpens.

If I were in the shoes of the "villager", and these azz holes took up shelter in my village, I would run like he!!.

If the terrorists are smart, they won't let you. You're leverage.

In many of these situations, there is no possibility at all of a 'clean' victory. It comes down to a choice between retreat and tainted victory. If victory yields honor and no other tangible/strategic benefit, I lean towards retreat, however dishonorable that may seem.

Any level of war really sucks.

Arnold said it best in his script in Terminator II, paraphrased for clarity: Humans have a propensity to destroy themselves. A sad reality.

[Ban Hammer 13,625]

awww ####### i'm disappointed. i glanced at this topic and thought it was "Lesbian army is cleaning house!"