Take Germany's newest citizenship test as administered in Baden Württemberg.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

But how is one to test values? It can't be done. People lie on tests all the time. And just because someone says something doesn't mean they will ever take it beyond words.

The larger idea behind this "test" is, though, that if it turns out down the road, through your actions, that you just answered what you thought they wanted to hear to pass, that your once granted citizenship can be revoked based on your having been untruthful. So, while one can do and think whatever one wants if one is a born citizen, one has to be careful if one is only a naturalized citizen? Second class citizens? And the children of second class citizens (Germany doesn't have a right to citizenship based on being born there but based on being born to German parent(s)) are no better off? Potentially lose their citizenship if that of the parent is revoked? Is that where this is going?

Edited February 1, 2006 by ET-US2004

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

But how is one to test values? It can't be done. People lie on tests all the time. And just because someone says something doesn't mean they will ever take it beyond words.

The larger idea behind this "test" is, though, that if it turns out down the road, through your actions, that you just answered what you thought they wanted to hear to pass, that your once granted citizenship can be revoked based on your having beeg untruthful. So, while one can do and think whatever one wants if one is a born citizen, one has to be careful if one is only a naturalized citizen? Second class citizens? And the children of second class citizens (Germany doesn't have a right to citizenship based on being born there but based on being born to German parent(s)) are no better off? Potentially lose their citizenship if that of the parent is revoked? Is that where this is going?

We are in violent agreement.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

Germany doesn't have a right to citizenship based on being born there but based on being born to German parent(s)...

I completely agree with the rest of your post, but the above statement is outdated. German citizenship is now also available to children born to immigrants in Germany. Source

Not too be nit-picky, but it changes the idea of second-class citizens' children being second-class as well.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Germany doesn't have a right to citizenship based on being born there but based on being born to German parent(s)...

I completely agree with the rest of your post, but the above statement is outdated. German citizenship is now also available to children born to immigrants in Germany. Source

Not too be nit-picky, but it changes the idea of second-class citizens' children being second-class as well.

Not to be nit-picky but the foreign parents have to meet a number of criteria for their child born in Germany to have a claim to German citizenship. It's not just the being born there part that matters as is the case for anyone born in the US.

[I'm Gone 60]

The U.S. Naturalization test is supposed to be updated in 2008 and it will probably be harder than it is now.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles...not_presidents/

All good and fair (even though a significant number of born and raised Americans would likely fail even the current, fairly simple citizenship test). The US citizenship test is based on knowledge of facts about the country's history and government system as well as some knowledge of the English language. I can appreciate that kind of testing. But testing opinion?

Well my wife had her Naturization interview yesterday and passed, but I agree that memorizing how many stars are on the flag is pretty low standard to determine if a person should become a U.S. citizen.

I agree that probably a good many U.S. citizens wouldn't know the answers to the questions, but there is no test if you were born here thanks to the 14th admendment and hopefully that will change too.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

So if the German govt. is only going to test Muslim men, aren't they basically affirming the values that women's oppinions don't matter?

And right here at home, aren't the values of our founding fathers being largely ignored today?

The idea behind the test being only for Muslim men has a lot to do with the way in which German politicians view foreign immigrants and it also speaks to immigration practices that are somewhat bizarre. Many western politicians seem to think that Muslim men are potentially dangerous, but not Muslim women because they are opressed. Weird thinking, what?

Your question also points in another direction, why only Muslim men and not all men or even better all immigrants? Same answer here; it's a complete kneejerk-reaction without any foundation in reality.

As to the values of the founding fathers: I guess there were so many of them that it would be hard to say;.

But to be honest, I think you're right, but that is partly because of historical distance; it's not like we can pick some of their values (say property-based voting rights) but not others (like only allowing white men to be naturalized).

[slim 1,525]

Good points about the founding fathers Fisch. There were some biases there too!

It seems like all governments are worried about Muslim men now. What they don't realize though is that's what leaves the door wide open for terrorism in the first place..... assumptions.

"We think only a Muslim man will be bringing a bomb in here....."

"Thanks!" Says the woman from Armageddons'R'Us.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

Germany doesn't have a right to citizenship based on being born there but based on being born to German parent(s)...

I completely agree with the rest of your post, but the above statement is outdated. German citizenship is now also available to children born to immigrants in Germany. Source

Not too be nit-picky, but it changes the idea of second-class citizens' children being second-class as well.

Not to be nit-picky but the foreign parents have to meet a number of criteria for their child born in Germany to have a claim to German citizenship. It's not just the being born there part that matters as is the case for anyone born in the US.

True. Whether or not the child can actually be a German citizen depends on the parents' legal residence in Germany and the length of their residence (a minimum of 8 years). So children of illegal immigrants are excluded, as are children of asylum seekers, refugees, etc. Sorry to interrupt your topic.

[Sister Fracas 5]

I agree that probably a good many U.S. citizens wouldn't know the answers to the questions, but there is no test if you were born here thanks to the 14th admendment and hopefully that will change too.

And then what would you propose to do to a citizen that fails????

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I agree that probably a good many U.S. citizens wouldn't know the answers to the questions, but there is no test if you were born here thanks to the 14th admendment and hopefully that will change too.

And then what would you propose to do to a citizen that fails????

I fully expect us to hold immigrants seeking to naturalize to a higher bar than natural born citizens.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I agree that probably a good many U.S. citizens wouldn't know the answers to the questions, but there is no test if you were born here thanks to the 14th admendment and hopefully that will change too.

And then what would you propose to do to a citizen that fails????

I fully expect us to hold immigrants seeking to naturalize to a higher bar than natural born citizens.

Yes, because the former can't run for the highest office...

[I'm Gone 60]

I agree that probably a good many U.S. citizens wouldn't know the answers to the questions, but there is no test if you were born here thanks to the 14th admendment and hopefully that will change too.

And then what would you propose to do to a citizen that fails????

I was referring to the changing of a person automatically being a citizen just because they were born here, e.g. one parent must be a citizen.

[Sister Fracas 5]

I agree that probably a good many U.S. citizens wouldn't know the answers to the questions, but there is no test if you were born here thanks to the 14th admendment and hopefully that will change too.

And then what would you propose to do to a citizen that fails????

I was referring to the changing of a person automatically being a citizen just because they were born here, e.g. one parent must be a citizen.

ahhhhhhhh, comprende.... and not a bad idea....

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I agree that probably a good many U.S. citizens wouldn't know the answers to the questions, but there is no test if you were born here thanks to the 14th admendment and hopefully that will change too.

And then what would you propose to do to a citizen that fails????

I was referring to the changing of a person automatically being a citizen just because they were born here, e.g. one parent must be a citizen.

ahhhhhhhh, comprende.... and not a bad idea....

If nothing else, it would save the public health systems plenty of cash because the major benefit of coming to the US just for having the baby here would be gone.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

I agree that probably a good many U.S. citizens wouldn't know the answers to the questions, but there is no test if you were born here thanks to the 14th admendment and hopefully that will change too.

And then what would you propose to do to a citizen that fails????

I was referring to the changing of a person automatically being a citizen just because they were born here, e.g. one parent must be a citizen.

ahhhhhhhh, comprende.... and not a bad idea....

Almost a good idea. But then the US would finally be as elitist as those countries that base citizenship on bloodlines. Compromise: Only children of legal residents and citizens will be citizens at birth.