Mexicans fear U.S. immigration plan

[pedroh 21]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070518/ap_on_...8sz1o1rSl8UewgF

Mexicans fear U.S. immigration plan

By TRACI CARL, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 45 minutes ago

MONTERREY, Mexico - Many in Mexico expressed disappointment Friday with the U.S. Congress' immigration reform proposal, arguing it doesn't let enough Mexicans enter the United States legally to work, while focusing on an arduous path to residency for those who have already taken the illegal path.

Mexican news media and activists attacked what they viewed as a measure to limit the number of seasonal workers allowed into the United States — even as the compromise's proponents said it would let in many more.

Migrants as well as U.S. employers who need workers for low-skilled jobs had hoped Congress would streamline and vastly expand the existing guest worker program, allowing more to cross legally, work a few months, then return home with their savings to build homes and businesses.

The new proposal did include a new guest worker program, but it appeared to limit the number of times workers could renew the temporary visas.

At the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey, which hands out more temporary work visas than anywhere else in the world, Edmundo Bermudez, a 36-year-old from the northern city of Durango, was especially offended by reports that preference would be given to migrants with degrees and specialized skills.

"The United States already has enough people with college degrees. Who is going to cut their tobacco?" asked Bermudez, who has been working intermittently in the U.S. for the past eight years. In Mexico, he makes about $10 a day, while in the U.S. he earns $8 an hour.

Poor baby! Quite frankly I don't care what Mexico thinks. I'm offended because Mexicans are starting to run over my town. I'm offeneded that my 6 year old has to learn spanish because there are 2 kids in her class that cannot speak english. I'm offeneded that my tax dollars are going to support illegals with healthcare when I myself have a difficult time paying for it. So there....I'm offended too Eddie! I don't have a problem at all with mexicans, I just have a problem when the wrong measures are taken to get to the U.S

no.. this is xenophobic.. and no, it's no racecard.. when you say 'im offended because "race" are starting to run over my town' that is fukcin racist...

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Not wanting illegal immigrants doesnt make anyone racist... the anger comes from the shite we've all been through to do it legally while johnny illegal just jumps the border or never leaves and expects the same, or as close to as possible, options and treatment.

Gotta love how this 'race card' bullcrap is banded about so often. Save your rage.

I would agree with you if most illegal immigrants were people who bypassed family immigration rules to be with their spouses/boyfriends/girlfriends instead of following the legal process. Then it would seem totally unfair for those people to be rewarded.

In real life, the situations are completely incomparable. It makes that argument kind of childish, IMO.

It is incomparable. The truth is that what we're witnesing here is the preferential treatment of law breaking foreign nationals and law breaking profiteers here over the American family. Why are the employer that cheats the country and profits at the expense of the taxpayer and the illegal that joins the aforementioned crook in pizzing on our laws day in and day out more important to this government that the American family? Does that not make you mad?

We're not talking about foreign nationals in general but specifically the influx of Mexican immigrants that are here illegally - many for who've been here for 10 years or more - can you not see a difference?

They have been and still are here against the law. They broke the law each and every day they went to work and they continue to do so going forward. They don't really give a ####### what the law is. Ain't their business because in all actuality, their above it. This bill makes that official. Often, they committed felonies in the process. Never mind. Forgiven. They cost taxpayers billions of dollars a year. That ain't gonna stop. They have no right to be here. None whatsoever. Yet they claim oherwise. And here they are to be treated better than your spouse or mine would if she had just stayed a year beyond her welcomeon any given visit prior to your petitioning for her w/o doing anyone any harm and without ever running into any other conflict with the law. If that doesn't outrage you, then there's nothing I can say.

It's a broken system for sure, but I don't project any emotional outrage I have over the current bureaucracy of the immigration process on Mexican immigrants - I just don't.

It's not about a broken system. It's about the lack of respect for the law and the lack of enforcement that broke a system. Rewarding those that broke it is simply the wrong approach. And that approach sure isn't going to fix anything. If it would, we wouldn't be in this mess today as such "fix" was installed 20 some years ago with the exact same promises that are being made today. Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is insane.

As for immigration policy in general - if companies want to sponsor low skilled laborers, there needs to be provisions to ensure those workers have opportunities for citizenship that aren't entirely dependent on their employer that companies pick up the entire cost of having foreign workers here. Health care and all.

There, fixed. See, once you focus on what's really important, the working conditions in the low-skilled sector of the US job market wouldn't erode the way they did thanks to illegal labor and their profiteers. There wouldn't be a need for this huge influx of folks from south of the border. A janitor in the US used to be able support him/herself and his/her family. As did a farmworker and a dishwasher. Not anymore. The increased availablity of illegal labor and the erosion of the working conditions in the sectors where they work go hand in hand. And that ain't no coincidence. It's the race to the bottom that big business is looking to fuel with this bill.

While I agree the job market has taken a nose dive, it's not just because of the influx of low wage laborers. The biggest erosion that happened to Detroit was when automakers started closing shop and moving into Mexico for cheap labor. Did you forget that fact? (Which BTW, you have people like Gary who specifically blame that on the unions). Look, cheap labor is one of the prevailing issues and focusing the outrage on the unskilled laborers that have migrated from Mexico is myopic. The system is broken in that we entered into a open trade agreement with Mexico which has resulted in greater economic disparity rather than leveling the playing field. One fact that people seem to glaze over is that since NAFTA, the influx of illegals surged to the number it is today.

The Washington Post's report on the 10-year anniversary of NAFTA told the story: 19 million more Mexicans now live in poverty than before the pact was signed. Similarly, former U.S. Labor Secretary Robert Reich points out, "Mexico's real wages are lower than they were before [NAFTA]." And because NAFTA included no provisions to force companies to improve Mexican working conditions, jobs that were created in Mexico still pay near-slave wages For instance, the Associated Press noted this week that "Many young [Mexicans] have manual jobs on minimum wage of $5 a day."

http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/agp/f...mmigration.html

If you want to protect American's jobs then support a North American Union. A more comprehensive trade pact with Canada and Mexico that would include guest worker programs like the ones in the European Union. That's why I'm trying to say that our problems with undocumented workers crossing over here from Mexico is an economic one (as opposed to national security - criminals breaking laws) and can't effectively be addressed under the umbrella of an immigration reform bill. In fact, my hunch is that many Mexicans who come here looking for work, wouldn't even want to become permanent US citizens if they could find other economic opportunities.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Steven_and_Jinky

[GaryC 7]

<shakes head> You really don't get it Steven. Your letting your heart override your head. While it may make you "feel" better it will in reality make things much worse. Sometimes life isn't fair. That is the reality of our existence. When you try to make things fair for everyone you will make it unfair for all. Without getting into the whole liberal/conservative thing again this points out the difference between the two ways of thinking. One way (my way) is to follow the law and the other (your way) is to give what you see as the downtrodden a break. So it boils down to this. Follow the law or not. I would say my way is the right way. Please try to defend your position of breaking the law is the right way. You can't do it without getting into accusing people of racism or xenophobia.

[Alex+R 0]

<shakes head> You really don't get it Steven. Your letting your heart override your head. While it may make you "feel" better it will in reality make things much worse. Sometimes life isn't fair. That is the reality of our existence. When you try to make things fair for everyone you will make it unfair for all. Without getting into the whole liberal/conservative thing again this points out the difference between the two ways of thinking. One way (my way) is to follow the law and the other (your way) is to give what you see as the downtrodden a break. So it boils down to this. Follow the law or not. I would say my way is the right way. Please try to defend your position of breaking the law is the right way. You can't do it without getting into accusing people of racism or xenophobia.

???

I'm sure Steven can answer for himself, but his response had nothing "emotional" in it that I could see. He also hasn't accused people of racism or xenophobia. There seemed to be nothing in there about "giving the downtrodden a break." Did you even read his post or did you just assume what he'd write based on your own preconceived notions of what people who don't agree with you might say?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

If you bleeding hearts don't care about what's happening to your peers, maybe you can grasp how today's low wage illegal is breeding those who will take away your children's right to a job. Their illegal children are not only being given free education thru your property taxes, but they are being given a right denied to YOU and YOURS to attend a college out of state paying in-state tuition. NO AMERICAN HAS THAT RIGHT, but it's being extended to illegals by some states now and this assine bill will extend it in all states in the future, if passed. DO you believe in equal protection under the law, at least? Then, how can you support making illegals a special protected class based on their lawbreaking skills?

BTW, Steven, you ignored my earlier questions to you.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[GaryC 7]

<shakes head> You really don't get it Steven. Your letting your heart override your head. While it may make you "feel" better it will in reality make things much worse. Sometimes life isn't fair. That is the reality of our existence. When you try to make things fair for everyone you will make it unfair for all. Without getting into the whole liberal/conservative thing again this points out the difference between the two ways of thinking. One way (my way) is to follow the law and the other (your way) is to give what you see as the downtrodden a break. So it boils down to this. Follow the law or not. I would say my way is the right way. Please try to defend your position of breaking the law is the right way. You can't do it without getting into accusing people of racism or xenophobia.

???

I'm sure Steven can answer for himself, but his response had nothing "emotional" in it that I could see. He also hasn't accused people of racism or xenophobia. There seemed to be nothing in there about "giving the downtrodden a break." Did you even read his post or did you just assume what he'd write based on your own preconceived notions of what people who don't agree with you might say?

I read every word he wrote. You may have missed his earlier post:

Look, Gary - I'll say it one more time - I don't think you are racist or that most of those who don't want illegal immigrants from Mexico to be here are being racist, but you've got to look at all the factions behind the 'outrage'. There was a time when Americans were in outrage over the influx of Irish immigrants and much of that outrage was fueled by xenophobia. That factor is present right now with the influx of Mexican immigrants.

He is clearly playing the race card here and when I called him on it he changed over to a supposed "economic" argument and started to talk about NAFTA and a North American Union. That still does not address the fact that he wants to give those that are here illegally a break that others that want to come to America don't get. Just because Mexico sits at our southern border does not give them any special consideration when it comes to following our laws. And Steven does not even try to address the fact that not everyone here illegally are Mexican. They come from all over Latin America and the rest of the world and our border with Mexico is just the easy way for them to enter. So by giving the ones from Mexico a special break we are also giving people that are not from Mexico the same break. That kind of blows his whole "economic" argument. I will still stand by my original point. Follow the law. EVERYONE FROM ANY COUNTRY! It is the only fair thing to do.

[Alex+R 0]

So, he said that you're not racist, but that racism exists and makes some people angry about immigrants? Uh... of course that's true? That's not "playing the race card"; it's acknowledging that people can be racist and that's why some are so angry about this issue. Doesn't mean it's the #1 driving force.

[LaL 418]

** off topic alert **

i can't help but think its the growing anti-immigrant sentiment throughout the country that is driving for a quick turnaround of any legislation. they want to pass something that "fixes the problem", and this rush to commit to fixing this problem will cause a myriad of issues elsewhere. taking your eye off the prize (preserving and improving rights for your family) gives the power to law-makers to decide for you what the biggest issue is and let all others effectively fall by the wayside. screaming about illegals is making the climate all about fixing the illegal problem.

[GaryC 7]

So, he said that you're not racist, but that racism exists and makes some people angry about immigrants? Uh... of course that's true? That's not "playing the race card"; it's acknowledging that people can be racist and that's why some are so angry about this issue. Doesn't mean it's the #1 driving force.

Do you agree that we should not let our national immigration policy be driven by a reaction to "some" peoples racism or xenophobia or should we set our policy by what is good for our country? I will ask you the same question. What is the right thing to do? Follow the law or give those that broke our law a break and reward their lawbreaking? What message do you want to send to those that are considering breaking our laws? I will stand by my position. The right thing to do is to obey the law and not reward ANYONE for breaking the law.

[Captain Oates 911]

I will fight and scream until my last breath to keep illegals out of my country. You'll just have to get used to it.

Do you know that Sitting Bull said the same thing... actually 'nguk fling white eyes crphndzug' - look where his prediction ended up...

anyway you don't even like legals like me either in 'your country' that your forebears stole

now somebody is stealing back -it's suddenly wrong

anyone who doesn't look, think, talk and act like you needs to be behind an electric fence - when the fence becomes circular it is called a concentration camp - but it will be round your dwindling gated community of pistol twirling teeth gnashers- not round mexico

My country is going Pakistani and 'yours' is going Spanish - (or back to Spanish) - both are unstoppable

If you can't beat em or out breed em (and you can't) then join em and get ready to enjoy soccer on telly !

viva ! and AMIGOS - una recepción calurosa a los Estados Unidos !!!!

alan

[Alex+R 0]

So, he said that you're not racist, but that racism exists and makes some people angry about immigrants? Uh... of course that's true? That's not "playing the race card"; it's acknowledging that people can be racist and that's why some are so angry about this issue. Doesn't mean it's the #1 driving force.

Do you agree that we should not let our national immigration policy be driven by a reaction to "some" peoples racism or xenophobia or should we set our policy by what is good for our country? I will ask you the same question. What is the right thing to do? Follow the law or give those that broke our law a break and reward their lawbreaking? What message do you want to send to those that are considering breaking our laws? I will stand by my position. The right thing to do is to obey the law and not reward ANYONE for breaking the law.

I don't see "law breaking" in the black and white way you do and I don't see the laws as static the way you do (although I don't understand why you do). Thinking the government is "rewarding lawbreaking" is a bit narrow and shortsighted view, IMO. What is right is not always legal, and that is especially true when we are trying to determine what is right in order to draft laws that don't exist yet. So I can't agree with you on that as such. No we shouldn't listen to xenophobes, obviously, but they're a big force and most can't admit it to themselves.

[Alex+R 0]

** off topic alert **

i can't help but think its the growing anti-immigrant sentiment throughout the country that is driving for a quick turnaround of any legislation. they want to pass something that "fixes the problem", and this rush to commit to fixing this problem will cause a myriad of issues elsewhere. taking your eye off the prize (preserving and improving rights for your family) gives the power to law-makers to decide for you what the biggest issue is and let all others effectively fall by the wayside. screaming about illegals is making the climate all about fixing the illegal problem.

Well, that seems to be what most Americans care about right now (illegal immigration). I'm actually ok with a lot of stuff in the bill, but I hate that it's being done at the expense of family immigration. I can't believe they have the gall to say it's not and then directly tell us they're removing important visas.

[peejay 327]

I will fight and scream until my last breath to keep illegals out of my country. You'll just have to get used to it.

Do you know that Sitting Bull said the same thing... actually 'nguk fling white eyes crphndzug' - look where his prediction ended up...

anyway you don't even like legals like me either in 'your country' that your forebears stole

now somebody is stealing back -it's suddenly wrong

anyone who doesn't look, think, talk and act like you needs to be behind an electric fence - when the fence becomes circular it is called a concentration camp - but it will be round your dwindling gated community of pistol twirling teeth gnashers- not round mexico

My country is going Pakistani and 'yours' is going Spanish - (or back to Spanish) - both are unstoppable

If you can't beat em or out breed em (and you can't) then join em and get ready to enjoy soccer on telly !

viva ! and AMIGOS - una recepción calurosa a los Estados Unidos !!!!

alan

Been off your meds again lately, eh?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Going back to Spanish? I doubt that the aboriginals of the New World were speaking Spanish when the Europeans showed up.

[Captain Oates 911]

Been off your meds again lately, eh?

Actually there is a problem with illegals - the 150 thousand Americans who illegally entered Iraq - armed and dangerous and pumping oil 24/7 - they didn't have visas either

Let's deal with that first before we pick on Pedro the plant picker who came in unarmed and worked for what he took

If we want people to stay in their own country then let's start there

A majority of Americans agree with that actually... look at the opinion polls...