Mexicans fear U.S. immigration plan

[Captain Oates 911]

There's a reason the traditional expression goes "God, Family and Country" as opposed to "Country, God, Family".

A law is the law, but the law isn't always just. God is just and what is just must, therefore, be the will of God.

Disobeying the law has historically been OK (in hindsight, always) when the cause has been just.

Does this mean I can have a beer in Florida without hiding it in a cooler like the local christian kids do ?

If so, count me in....

alan

Edited May 20, 2007 by saywhat

[GaryC 7]

I don't see "law breaking" in the black and white way you do and I don't see the laws as static the way you do (although I don't understand why you do). Thinking the government is "rewarding lawbreaking" is a bit narrow and shortsighted view, IMO. What is right is not always legal, and that is especially true when we are trying to determine what is right in order to draft laws that don't exist yet. So I can't agree with you on that as such. No we shouldn't listen to xenophobes, obviously, but they're a big force and most can't admit it to themselves.

Ahhh... I see now. You are saying that the law isn't really the law if you disagree with it. That clears things up.

Gary,

There's a reason the traditional expression goes "God, Family and Country" as opposed to "Country, God, Family".

A law is the law, but the law isn't always just. God is just and what is just must, therefore, be the will of God.

Disobeying the law has historically been OK (in hindsight, always) when the cause has been just.

So you think God is in favor of people breaking the law of the land? I didn't know he gave you a new commandment. Thanks for sharing that with us.

God isn't going to give you everything in writing. He gave you a brain, Gary.

Slavery was the law, once upon a time. God fearing people who believed in justice opposed that law. They encouraged people to break that law. Today, we are a better nation for it.

The question you should be asking yourself isn't whether illegal immigrants have broken the law. Clearly, they have. The appropriate question is this: is the course of action you are advocating just?

Thats the problem isn't it? What seems right or wrong to me isn't the question. What God wants or doesn't want isn't the question. Who really knows what God wants? It isn't up to the individual to make that choice. That is what we have a government for. If you think a law is wrong then elect someone that will change the law. If we disregard a law we don't think is right then we will have people disregarding any law they don't think is right. That isn't the way a civilized people do things. Don't you see the danger in that way of thinking? We have to work within the law and now outside of it.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

???? My siggy confuses you more?

I live in a majority moslem area - full letter box headgear etc - I talk to the guys about how wonderful it must be to have your wife obey you and never contradict you - you should see their faces ! taint true -they get all the incessant rabbit too ! its all the same stuff that we have in west - its called 'shared humanity'

Did I vote to live in a Moslem area ? no - do I hate them - no ! The young moslems I meet are cleaner and better mannered and more litter free than the locals in very many cases. Perhaps the Mexicans might have some nice things going for them too if we bothered to find out ...

Your siggy leads me to assume you dont want pure bred Americans to romp with foreigners of an ilk you don't like and who haven't had a government medical- and then bring their germs back first and their partners back later - if your sig isn't about that then I am confused (by it).. if it is - then of course you are entitled to your opinion which isn't that bad as long as you don't want to invade em and steal their oil.

I still haven't come to terms with the vision of people rolling in haystacks in the desert - perhaps its rolls of astro turf

alan

First of all, the term is MUSLIMS, not Moslems. How do I know? I am a Muslim, an Arab, in fact, born and bred, and not a pure bred either. The only ancestor I had that wasn't born overseas was my Palestinian American father. My deceased husband and my current husband are furriners. I also speak Spanish and used to live in South America. Two of my children were born in the Middle East.

You shouldn't make AZZumptions. Ask if you don't know. I don't like rewarding lawbreakers, and if that makes me a bigot in your eyes, so be it. My siggy is regarding something you have no understanding of, that's clear.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Alex+R 0]

MLK Jr. and Gandhi were dangerous thinkers, weren't they, Gary?

School segregation was wrong, and anyone who protested it probably should have kept their mouths shut and let the all-powerful and (apparently) all-knowing government take care of things.

How you could possibly be a product of the American school system and not a repressive regime's is beyond me.

[LaGreenEyes 0]

well.. USA wouldn't need so many guest workers if actually americans would do the jobs, or not quit after a week.. or study something related to where all guest workers are being hired... if high school kids want to go work in their uncle's drywall business instead of studying something some big-####### company needs, they wouldn't hire dem indians and chinese..

In the United States, about 35-40% of adults have a bachelor's degree. Now, according to the illegal Mexican tobacco field hand, we have 'enough'. Well, he should just stop cutting tobacco and we should just make a position for him in Bush's cabinet. We do NOT have enough adults with bachelor's degrees, and we have severe skills shortages in some areas. The Chinese and the Indians aren't short of engineers and scientists, and that's scary because we ARE

Actually, more Americans are losing their jobs in the engineering, biotech, computer, research industries because of the tens of thousands of H-1B Indian and Chinese workers "imported" here every year.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the year 2001, 9 out of every 10 new job openings for computer/IT were taken by H-1Bs, and despite record unemployment the INS issued 312,000 visas in 2002.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the year 2003 the total number of H-1B visas for high-tech workers issued was greater than the total number of high-tech jobs eliminated. Negative job growth in Computer/IT for U.S. citizens and residents can be directly correlated with the huge influx of H-1B visa holders. If it wasn't for H-1B the unemployment rate for Computer/IT workers would be 0%.

I got this data from a link on DICE.com discussion forums. There are horror stories about US citizens and green card holders losing jobs and being turned down for jobs only to give them to the H visa holders from India. Last year alone one outsourcing recruitment agency in India applied for 22K H visas IN ONE DAY. Even people of Indian descent in the USA are losing their jobs because of this policy. But, the MYTH of "there aren't enough skilled workers in the USA" remains.

The priority SHOULD be given to the laborers that are going to fill the glut of those jobs that they have been doing for years anyways, and leave the degreed professional jobs to the citizens and residents that are already here. The tobacco guy is right. If a door is going to be opened, which I was always in favor of some kind of policy being developed, it should help those very people that are needing it most, (laborers) and not at the expense of the legal residents and citizens.

Even people of Indian descent whaaaaaaaa.... what do they mean? This is ridiculous fearmongering. If we didn't need more IT workers, they wouldn't be taking up the H1Bs. Do you have any idea what an employer goes through to hire an H1B? What they have to do before hiring one? Do you realize that none of the "statistics" and their conclusions you quoted make any sense? Ugh I get so tired of this #######.

Go on the DICE.com discussion boards. Like I said, there are quite a few tech people on there that cannot find work because it is all being farmed out to the H-1B's. I got those stats from the links on the discussion boards. I never even really thought about it, untill I happened upon that. I do know what an employer goes through to hire an H-1B, it's not as much as you might think. How does it not make sense? They are clear statistics. 9 out of 10 computer jobs in 2001 were taken by H-1B's. That's plain English last time I checked. How does that not make sense? I read one story by a U.S citizen of Indian descent that spoke of how he and his wife got laid off and replaced by H-1B's. Unless you are in I.T., you probably don't have a clue. I have read on these boards people in I.T. having difficulty as well. If you call what I am saying "fearmongering" then yes, I am more afraid of foreigners taking jobs that people DO want and STUDY for rather than berry picking, McDonald's and tobacco rolling.

[Alex+R 0]

You must have failed 8th grade math, La Green Eyes.

By the way, my husband is in IT, and had no problem finding a job. He used the same methods an American would use, as he is legally here, and found many available positions. We do not live in an IT-rich city.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

MLK Jr. and Gandhi were dangerous thinkers, weren't they, Gary?

Gandhi was about fighting invaders. So are we. MLK was about exercising for rights gained as American citizens. So are we. Both would be anti-illegals.

[Alex+R 0]

MLK Jr. and Gandhi were dangerous thinkers, weren't they, Gary?

Gandhi was about fighting invaders. So are we. MLK was about exercising for rights gained as American citizens. So are we. Both would be anti-illegals.

I'm not going to touch that except to say that I was responding to Gary's suggestion that thinking about the fairness of the law was "dangerous."

[one...two...tree 2,762]

<shakes head> You really don't get it Steven. Your letting your heart override your head. While it may make you "feel" better it will in reality make things much worse. Sometimes life isn't fair. That is the reality of our existence. When you try to make things fair for everyone you will make it unfair for all. Without getting into the whole liberal/conservative thing again this points out the difference between the two ways of thinking. One way (my way) is to follow the law and the other (your way) is to give what you see as the downtrodden a break. So it boils down to this. Follow the law or not. I would say my way is the right way. Please try to defend your position of breaking the law is the right way. You can't do it without getting into accusing people of racism or xenophobia.

???

I'm sure Steven can answer for himself, but his response had nothing "emotional" in it that I could see. He also hasn't accused people of racism or xenophobia. There seemed to be nothing in there about "giving the downtrodden a break." Did you even read his post or did you just assume what he'd write based on your own preconceived notions of what people who don't agree with you might say?

Thank you, Alex. Gary, I'm actually trying to be as pragmatic about it as I can and leave emotions out of it.

I'm spent on this thread... I poured a lot into the preceeding posts...hopefully my argument makes sense to some.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

** off topic alert **

i can't help but think its the growing anti-immigrant sentiment throughout the country that is driving for a quick turnaround of any legislation. they want to pass something that "fixes the problem", and this rush to commit to fixing this problem will cause a myriad of issues elsewhere. taking your eye off the prize (preserving and improving rights for your family) gives the power to law-makers to decide for you what the biggest issue is and let all others effectively fall by the wayside. screaming about illegals is making the climate all about fixing the illegal problem.

Well said.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

What's so fair about not liking the rules because you want no rules at all?

[natty bumppo 297]

You must have failed 8th grade math, La Green Eyes.

By the way, my husband is in IT, and had no problem finding a job. He used the same methods an American would use, as he is legally here, and found many available positions. We do not live in an IT-rich city.

And after reading his signature ... I thought he was a cardiologist from brazil who drove a taxi in the USA

"No Brasil, eu era cardiologista. Agora, aqui nos EUA, dirijo taxi..."

[Alex+R 0]

You must have failed 8th grade math, La Green Eyes.

By the way, my husband is in IT, and had no problem finding a job. He used the same methods an American would use, as he is legally here, and found many available positions. We do not live in an IT-rich city.

And after reading his signature ... I thought he was a cardiologist from brazil who drove a taxi in the USA

"No Brasil, eu era cardiologista. Agora, aqui nos EUA, dirijo taxi..."

hehehe yeah that's a Family Guy reference.

[Sheriff Uling 3]

The simple fact is that Mexicans are breaking the law entering into our country illegally and they need to be held accountable. I believe the contention comes into play for most Americans because our culture is shifting drastically to nurture the assimilation of Mexicans (and other Hispanics) at the expense of all Americans in a big way. This is completely unfair when you look at how many other nationalities are here in the United States (IMO). America is not little Mexico or any other Hispanic country (again IMO). We live in California therefore we see this shift more profoundly than others and the Mexican government doesn’t give a rats #######.

so you're offended your kid will learn a language that will be helpful for his/her future?...

The probably would not be a need or requirement to learn Spanish if most Hispanic’s home countries were not poor, corrupt, and mis-managed forcing people to break our laws by entering our country illegal.

Our lifestyles are a result of Third World Labor...

Cheap labor is a minor contribution and nuisance to our society. America’s thriving lifestyle is the direct result of slavery.

Christ almighty, who CARES what people in Mexico think about this? What makes them think we should care? The United States is OUR country, and that means WE get to run it. Not Mexico.

Personally I'm against the new program; I'm against amnesty, and I'm against guest workers. The United States is going to be overrun with low-skilled migrant workers even more than it is now.

I agree… Who cares what Mexico thinks! They have no interest in our policies. In fact, Mexicans have benefited from our inability to enforce our laws and it really needs to spot. Unfortunately, there are lobbyist that I’m sure are pushing back in an attempt to make the proposed laws work. Whatever!!!

Illegal immigration is not about race. But race is brought up by liberals because they realize there is no other defense for illegal immigration. They're just grasping at straws.

I totally agree…

Mexicans fear U.S. immigration plan........

Hahahaha!!!

We should make a deal with Mexico. For every two hard-working but unskilled worker we take in from Mexico, they have to take one of our many useless bums and social rejects.

You, my friend, are hilarious…

My name is not Peter, is Pedro…

Afraid of losing your street credibility Peter… (LOL!!!!) And that is your American name.

They are not in effect gate crashers, but more like invited guests to this country in the context of our historical relationship with Mexico.

You must be running for congress in a district with a high volume of Mexicans…

Edited May 20, 2007 by Sheriff Uling

[Sheriff Uling 3]

Honestly, Steven...it's shocking how blind you are sometimes.

Steven is my friend and he totally goes over me head with his views on this one…

illegal immigrants pose more than just an economical threat... how many of what kind of communicable diseases are brought here, undocumented? for the first time that i know of, children in this country are now being immunized against hepatitis A... this is a disease that is rampant in some other countries but has been something that americans have not had to deal with on a widescale basis... how many cases of HIV are not being followed by the CDC (center for disease control) because they are being carried and potentially spread by undocumented immigrants? what about TB? i care about peoples health...

You made some very good points…

They don't wish to be held accountable for breaking the law ... so they simply find a way to project their crime onto others

That's hitting the nail on the head. Everyone is forgetting the simple fact that Mexicans are BREAKING THE LAW!!! Hello!!!