Trump: End birthright citizenship for some US-born babies

[TBoneTX 45,666]

4 hours ago, RLA said:

I'm also not sure how many Americans, left or right, would be comfortable with such a mandatory central register. 

SSNs are perilously close to "national ID numbers," which would be a very slippery slope toward governmental abuse and even oppression (whether from elected officials or bureaucrats at agencies).

[RLA 324]

13 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

You still haven’t provided sufficient proof that a new government department would be necessary to end jus soli.

That's because I never said we'd need a new department.  We could just as well expand one of the existing agencies, e.g., the SSA or the USCIS.  Either way, we would need some expansion of bureaucracy. 

 

13 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

I believe the burden of proof is on the person claiming to be a citizen rather than on the government. 

Sure, but the government needs to define what kind of evidence they'd be willing to accept.  And they should make sure that (1) citizens can obtain the evidence without too much hassle and that (2) the evidence can be verified. 

 

13 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

When I filed for my then fiance’s Visa I had to provide proof that I was a citizen

Let me guess, you did prove that by submitting a copy of your birth certificate.  Or a copy of your passport, for which you needed to prove your citizenship by showing your birth certificate.  So, how would you prove your citizenship if birth certificates were not accepted as evidence any longer? 

 

Sure, it can be done, as shown by a lot of other countries.  But you would then also have to adopt one of their bureaucratic systems, which I'm just not sure you'd really want because they all come with a cost. 

 

Speaking of other countries, I had almost missed this: 

22 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

but it would be something that should eventually get answered so we can get our country in line with most of the rest of the world.

Wow, are you—an apparent conservative, but definitely somebody who'd call himself a patriot—are you really advocating that America get in line with the rest of the world?  What happened to American exceptionalism?  You know, the idea that America is special and that—if anything—the other countries ought to get in line with America?  But if you really think that America should become more like other countries—OK—let's also discuss things like universal health care, the death penalty,  or weapons ownership. 

[RLA 324]

16 hours ago, Boiler said:

Must admit do not knwo the details of how it works in Europe, certainly not the case in the UK.

If you know more about the British system and how they track citizenship I'd be very happy to hear about it.  However, I'm not overly optimistic that I'd like their system so much that I'd prefer it over our current system.  Britain isn't exactly known for her lack of bureaucracy. 

[Randyandyuni 2,682]

2 minutes ago, RLA said:

 

 

Speaking of other countries, I had almost missed this: 

Wow, are you—an apparent conservative, but definitely somebody who'd call himself a patriot—are you really advocating that America get in line with the rest of the world?  What happened to American exceptionalism?  You know, the idea that America is special and that—if anything—the other countries ought to get in line with America?  But if you really think that America should become more like other countries—OK—let's also discuss things like universal health care, the death penalty,  or weapons ownership. 

I too am a conservative and also a patriot and being both or either does not preclude me from seeing areas outside of our country that could benefit our society. Only a fool closes their eyes to opportunity.  I am also a veteran, I remember spending 5 years of my life in Germany, the vestiges of an occupying army but also an ally allowing the West German country (another pesky reminder of the times) to retool their country, offer universal healthcare and advanced educational opportunities to its citizenry on the money they saved from their self defense. A status of forces agreement that set the exchange rate to not be able to rise above 4.5DM to the dollar at a time when the market rate would have been hundreds of DM to the USD. There is your definition of American exceptionalism, rebuilding, repatriating and propping up a country that declared war on us and was utterly defeated, unable to feed itself. I will date myself now, I was there in the 70's early 80's when there was an East/West Germany a visit to the non American/English supported portion was enlightening, probably one of the reasons I am still a patriot, I have seen the goodness that results from our American exceptionalism.

[Dashinka 24,657]

32 minutes ago, RLA said:

That's because I never said we'd need a new department.  We could just as well expand one of the existing agencies, e.g., the SSA or the USCIS.  Either way, we would need some expansion of bureaucracy. 

 

Sure, but the government needs to define what kind of evidence they'd be willing to accept.  And they should make sure that (1) citizens can obtain the evidence without too much hassle and that (2) the evidence can be verified. 

 

Let me guess, you did prove that by submitting a copy of your birth certificate.  Or a copy of your passport, for which you needed to prove your citizenship by showing your birth certificate.  So, how would you prove your citizenship if birth certificates were not accepted as evidence any longer? 

 

Sure, it can be done, as shown by a lot of other countries.  But you would then also have to adopt one of their bureaucratic systems, which I'm just not sure you'd really want because they all come with a cost. 

 

Speaking of other countries, I had almost missed this: 

Wow, are you—an apparent conservative, but definitely somebody who'd call himself a patriot—are you really advocating that America get in line with the rest of the world?  What happened to American exceptionalism?  You know, the idea that America is special and that—if anything—the other countries ought to get in line with America?  But if you really think that America should become more like other countries—OK—let's also discuss things like universal health care, the death penalty,  or weapons ownership. 

If we do like Germany and allow limited birthright citizenship to those born of one Gernam parent, or parents that are legal residents, then I suppose one would need to show your parents proof as well as your own.  It is interesting that Germany requires legal residents to be in Germany for I believe eight years before their children can claim German citizenship, I am not sure I would go that far here as I think any LPR that has a child should be able to claim citizenship for that child immediately.  Regardless, the burden of proof is still with the claimant and I imagine if a person goes so far as to get legal resident status, they should have the proper documents.  Still not seeing how this would lead to an expansion of government departments, it might actually reduce the government workload as those not able to claim citizenship for their children would be turned away and no paperwork would be processed.

 

As to your question regarding American exceptionalism, that still stands.  I am all for legal immigration and help those doing it right whenever I can, but I am also for protecting our sovereignty and keeping the illegal immigrant population as low as possible.  I don’t think this is a contradiction, and I have never said that other countries do not have good ideas, there is nothing wrong with using some of those ideas here.

[Boiler 45,784]

4 hours ago, RLA said:

If you know more about the British system and how they track citizenship I'd be very happy to hear about it.  However, I'm not overly optimistic that I'd like their system so much that I'd prefer it over our current system.  Britain isn't exactly known for her lack of bureaucracy. 

Like everywhere else I would imagine, you want a Passport you apply for one.

 

Britain has nothing compared to the US, something you do not realise until you get here.

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

3 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

If we do like Germany and allow limited birthright citizenship to those born of one Gernam parent, or parents that are legal residents, then I suppose one would need to show your parents proof as well as your own.  It is interesting that Germany requires legal residents to be in Germany for I believe eight years before their children can claim German citizenship, I am not sure I would go that far here as I think any LPR that has a child should be able to claim citizenship for that child immediately.  Regardless, the burden of proof is still with the claimant and I imagine if a person goes so far as to get legal resident status, they should have the proper documents.  Still not seeing how this would lead to an expansion of government departments, it might actually reduce the government workload as those not able to claim citizenship for their children would be turned away and no paperwork would be processed.

 

As to your question regarding American exceptionalism, that still stands.  I am all for legal immigration and help those doing it right whenever I can, but I am also for protecting our sovereignty and keeping the illegal immigrant population as low as possible.  I don’t think this is a contradiction, and I have never said that other countries do not have good ideas, there is nothing wrong with using some of those ideas here.

They also offer you entry in to low cost colleges IF you are able to test good on the national placement tests.

[Chris Duffy 1,257]

I watched Trump Press conference as he was getting on the helicopter today, he smoked the press today, It was brutal. 

 

Someone asked him if he is still going to sign an Executive Order stopping Birth Right and he said Yes.  And then said it will end up in the Supreme Court.

 

 

[RLA 324]

4 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

I suppose one would need to show your parents proof as well as your own.

Which raises 2 questions:  What kind of evidence would be accepted as proof of your parent's citizenship?  But also, what are people from broken families supposed to do, people whose parents are unable or unwilling to cooperate?  Those people struggle enough in their lives already.  Any new system should take care to not put too many new obstacles in their way just so that they can exercise their rights as citizens. 

 

4 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

It is interesting that Germany requires legal residents to be in Germany for I believe eight years before their children can claim German citizenship

Yes, Germany is far less generous with her citizenship than America.  Probably because, unlike America, she had never viewed herself as a country of immigrants.  On the other hand, bringing your foreign spouse to Germany seems to be far cheaper and faster than to America. 

 

4 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

Regardless, the burden of proof is still with the claimant

Regardless, the government still needs to say what kind of evidence it would accept. I don't think you've addressed that part yet.  In your plan, what kind of documents could Americans use to prove they're American? 

 

4 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

I imagine if a person goes so far as to get legal resident status, they should have the proper documents.

I'm not actually concerned about legal residents and naturalized citizens.  They'd be fine.  They all create nice long paper trails with USCIS that they can use as evidence.  I'm actually more concerned about the "real Americans", those whose ancestors have been here for generations, those who dislike the idea of having a paper trail with the government, and many of whom have never even had a passport. They've always relied on their birth certificates as evidence.  How will they prove they're citizens? 

 

4 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

Still not seeing how this would lead to an expansion of government departments, it might actually reduce the government workload as those not able to claim citizenship for their children would be turned away and no paperwork would be processed. 

It would expand government bureaucracy in two ways:  Children born here to non-citizens.  Currently they are citizens from birth, no problem.  In the future they would be immigrants, so they'd all need to be registered with USCIS.  USCIS would need to expand.  

 

But even more important, children born here to citizens.  Now they just need their birth certificate to prove citizenship.  In the future, they'd need their birth certificate (showing their parents) plus proof of their parent's citizenship or legal status.  This would obviously be more work for the citizens to produce than just a simple birth certificate.  But it'd also be more complicated for the various government authorities to verify.  Resulting in more work for the authorities, more staff, and higher fees for the citizens.  A.k.a. an expansion of bureaucracy.

[TBoneTX 45,666]

5 hours ago, Boiler said:

Britain has nothing compared to the US

They have tyres, whereas we merely have tires.

Edited November 10, 2018 by TBoneTX

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

13 hours ago, RLA said:

Which raises 2 questions:  What kind of evidence would be accepted as proof of your parent's citizenship?  But also, what are people from broken families supposed to do, people whose parents are unable or unwilling to cooperate?  Those people struggle enough in their lives already.  Any new system should take care to not put too many new obstacles in their way just so that they can exercise their rights as citizens. 

 

Regardless, the government still needs to say what kind of evidence it would accept. I don't think you've addressed that part yet.  In your plan, what kind of documents could Americans use to prove they're American? 

The same evidence that is currently required of all citizens today.  A combination of birth certificate, a SS card, a DL, a state ID, a military ID, or a passport.  I would imagine that if jus soli goes away, there would have to be a “born after requirement”, where anyone born after a particular date would have to provide proof of parental USC status.

 

Not saying it would be simple, because it won’t.  But it has been my experience that while some of the best things in life are free, the majority of things worth having take a lot of hard work and perseverance.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

While I agree in principal with limiting birthright citizenship in certain cases, it’s in the Constitution. How can an Executive Order change the Constitution? Wouldn’t the Constitution need to be amended? Can the Supreme Court make the change without going through the process to amend the Constitution? 

[JimandChristy 1,689]

17 minutes ago, spookyturtle said:

While I agree in principal with limiting birthright citizenship in certain cases, it’s in the Constitution. How can an Executive Order change the Constitution? Wouldn’t the Constitution need to be amended? Can the Supreme Court make the change without going through the process to amend the Constitution? 

You make complete sense but we've got a dictator wannabe in the White House. He wants to turn the USA into Trumpistan a place where he is supreme leader and facts don't matter.

[Boiler 45,784]

1 minute ago, JimandChristy said:

You make complete sense but we've got a dictator wannabe in the White House. He wants to turn the USA into Trumpistan a place where he is supreme leader and facts don't matter.

A bit Islamophobic.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

21 minutes ago, Boiler said:

A bit Islamophobic.

Hopefully someone reports it.  Pretty sad for a visa website.