Young Muslims in Cairo transform the hijab

[tiredandwornout 0]

Because Islam is nothing like Christianity. And while it's similar to Judaism in terms of obligations, it's still unique in its incrementalism and obligations. One can't look at Islam via Jewish or Christian POV and expect to understand what it is GEG is saying.

You are right about one thing for a change, Islam is nothing like Christianity or Judaism because I cannot think of any Christian or Jewish suicide bombers.

Edited May 19, 2007 by tiredandwornout

[Aymerlu 3]

Because Islam is nothing like Christianity. And while it's similar to Judaism in terms of obligations, it's still unique in its incrementalism and obligations. One can't look at Islam via Jewish or Christian POV and expect to understand what it is GEG is saying.

You are right about one thing for a change, Islam is nothing like Christianity or Judaism because I cannot think of any Christian or Jewish suicide bombers.

[tiano 0]

[

You are right about one thing for a change, Islam is nothing like Christianity or Judaism because I cannot think of any Christian or Jewish suicide bombers.

[/

[tiano 0]

[http://filfil.net/modules.php?name=Video_Stream&page=watch&id=6223&PHPSESSID=0d023aed962bfe961ce97ea2f27e5f36

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I should just stay out of this, but I really don't see how highlighting the many forms of observing Islam we see around the world is insulting to the religion. It seems more like a celebration that the faith finds such a broad audience in many different forms. It speaks universally to people from all over the world, but their interpretations and observations of it are colored by their cultural context.

You see the same thing with Christianity. It finds so many different forms, not only around the world but even within one city. I think it's wonderful that it speaks to some kind of universal truth that so many people accept as their own and find strength from. People celebrate it in markedly different ways, and although many people try to argue that their version is the only true way to celebrate it, I don't think we can pick any one form that represents the "true" Christianity.

Is it insulting to Christianity to say this? I don't think so.

Similarly Judaism has many forms. People interpret it in different ways, some adopting very conservative forms of dress, study, and worship, others opting for different interpretations. someone pointed out to me that there are many forms of Judaism, so the one I subscribe to isn't the only true form, I wouldn't be offended.

Nobody has exactly the same experience in this world, and nobody experiences religion in the same way as anyone else.

Islam is nothing like Christianity. For one thing, Muslims believe that Christianity is a perversion of God's Word. So to say, "Christians are divided into opinion groups about our faith, what's wrong with being like us?", which is essentially what you're saying, is no justification for condoning the confusion among Muslims about what's fashion and what's faith. Just because Christians lost their compass point long ago is no reason for Muslims to "celebrate" those among us losing theirs.

You probably make a better Christian than you make a Muslim, at this point, Sharon, because you really have no basis upon which to insist on what Islam allows or does not. So better that you stick to what you know and speak for them.

Because Islam is nothing like Christianity. And while it's similar to Judaism in terms of obligations, it's still unique in its incrementalism and obligations. One can't look at Islam via Jewish or Christian POV and expect to understand what it is GEG is saying.

You are right about one thing for a change, Islam is nothing like Christianity or Judaism because I cannot think of any Christian or Jewish suicide bombers.

Plenty of them among homicide bombers.

Edited May 19, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[monnik 0]

Because Islam is nothing like Christianity. And while it's similar to Judaism in terms of obligations, it's still unique in its incrementalism and obligations. One can't look at Islam via Jewish or Christian POV and expect to understand what it is GEG is saying.

aren't you an athiest?

Come back when your question holds some relevance. Or better yet, let me just jump ahead through your vapid question and get to the meat of it all.

The fact I don't personally believe in God (atheist, btw) has nothing to do with my ability to understand a religion via its own POV.

I don't think that kerewin was trying to say that Islam and Christianity were alike other than the fact that people's outward appearance and/or their interpretation of their beliefs can vary from one person to the next. Even though they have the same essential beliefs, no two Christians will be identical in their dress/makeup/outspokedness according to their faith. The same goes for Islam men and women. No two people will look exactly alike in all aspects or expectations of their religion. Those variations exist inside each religious/cultural group. These variations can sometimes be viewed as "increments" of the person's faith if you take a look at their individual spiritual journey. ex., A young girl (doesn't have to be young, btw) who adorns her hijab now may or may not continue to do so if she acheives a more mature and obliging perception of her religion.

Although an individual's current behaviors can be used as a measuring stick to see how much their faith projects onto others in their everyday life, taking a look at these types of behaviors shouldn't be considered mocking. It should be seen as an opportunity to educate. Many people have preconceived notions about other religions, and those prejudices go back and forth both ways.

I don't know if I agree with the statements made about a person's point of view. I don't think that you always have to look at Islam from a Christian perspective just because you are a Christian. (But, I don't believe you can separate yourself 100% from your beliefs, either.) I believe that Christians, Jews, etc. can view Islam from a human perspective and completely understand GEG's feelings. I don't think that your religion hinders your ability to be human. Along those same lines, I don't believe that atheism or any one religion gives one an insight into other religions. Anyone can understand where GEG was coming from. People were making light of Islam and Islamic tenets in her opinion, whereas other religions don't get "harped" on (so to say) as much. This is not about the religion itsself, as much as it is about others quickness to dismiss her values as "take it or leave it". To her, this trivializes her beliefs, and it can happen to anyone in any religion. It happens every day.

Her point, along with others' points, can be valid and co-exist without cancelling eachother out. People's religious beliefs, or lack thereof, are very important to them. Just as well, curiosity and lack of empathy exist in our world, so always be prepared to educate someone about what they might misconceive. This issue is multi-layered and people have a tendency to pull statements and words together (or apart) in order to emphasize. But, overall, everyone has a lot to give to this forum, to religions outside their own, and to the world. Just don't waste too much time trying to criticize or demonize the ones who are essentially in the same boat as you are. It all balances out in the end, I believe.

[monnik 0]

[http://filfil.net/modules.php?name=Video_Stream&page=watch&id=6223&PHPSESSID=0d023aed962bfe961ce97ea2f27e5f36

Speaking of balance.....to anyone who saw this video or has seen any other version of it in the past, here is a more BALANCED transcript of what was said on this program. It doesn't take away from the point of the video, but it does show another opinion for those who are interested.

7/26/2005 Clip No. 783

LA Psychologist Wafa Sultan Clashes with Algerian Islamist Ahmad bin Muhammad over Islamic Teachings and Terrorism

The following are excerpts from a debate between Wafa Sultan, a psychologist from Los Angeles and Dr. Ahmad Bin Muhammad, an Algerian professor of religious politics. Al-Jazeera TV aired this debate on July 26, 2005.

Wafa Sultan: Why does a young Muslim man, in the prime of life, with a full life ahead, go and blow himself up? How and why does he blow himself up in a bus full of innocent passengers?

In our countries, religion is the sole source of education, and is the only spring from which that terrorist drank until his thirst was quenched. He was not born a terrorist, and did not become a terrorist overnight. Islamic teachings played a role in weaving his ideological fabric, thread by thread, and did not allow other sources – I am referring to scientific sources – to play a role. It was these teachings that distorted this terrorist and killed his humanity. It was not (the terrorist) who distorted the religious teachings and misunderstood them, as some ignorant people claim.

When you recite to a child still in his early years the verse: "They will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off," regardless of this verse's interpretation, and regardless of the reasons it was conveyed or its time – you have made the first step towards creating a great terrorist...

Bin Muhammad: The guest from America asked how a young man could blow up a bus. If only she had asked how a president could blow up a peaceful nation in Iraq. How does a president help the arch-killer of occupied Palestine? Why doesn't she ask from where Hitler was brought up – Hitler, who murdered 50 million innocent people. Why doesn't she ask where the people who dropped two atom bombs on Japan were educated? Who killed three million innocent Vietnamese? Who annihilated the Indians? Who maintained imperialism to this day? Who waged the Spanish civil war, which exacted a toll of 600,000 in 36 months? Why don't we ask these questions? Who has over 15,000 nuclear warheads – Muslims or the non-Muslims? The Muslims or the Americans? The Muslims or the Europeans? We want an answer. Where was Bush educated – if education is really what makes a person a criminal?...

Wafa Sultan: Murder is terrorism regardless of time or place, but when it is committed as a decree from Allah, this is another matter...

The Crusader wars about which the professor is talking – these wars came after the Islamic religious teachings, and as a response to these teachings. This is the law of action and reaction. The Islamic religious teachings have incited to the rejection of the other, to the denial of the other, and to the killing of the other. Have they not incited to the killing of Jews and Christians? If we had heard that a tribe in a distant corner of China has a holy book and religious teachings calling to kill Muslims – would the Muslims stand idly by in the face of such teachings?

The Crusader wars came after these Islamic religious teachings. When these Islamic teachings were delivered, America did not exist on the face of the earth, nor was Israel in Palestine...

Why doesn't he talk about the Muslim conquests that preceded all the wars he is talking about? Why doesn't he mention that when Tariq bin Ziyyad entered Andalusia with his armies, he said to his people: "The sea is behind you, and the enemy is in front"? How can you storm a peaceful country, and consider all its peaceful inhabitants to be your enemies, merely because you have the right to spread your religion? Should the religion be spread by the sword and through fighting?...

Bin Muhammad: Who invented slavery in recent centuries? Who colonized the other – us or them? Did Algeria colonize France, or vice versa? Did Egypt colonize England, or vice versa? We are the victims...

I am not saying that killing innocent people is nice. I say that all innocent people should be protected. But at the same time, we must start with the innocent among the Muslims. There are millions of innocent people among us, while the innocent among you – and innocent they are – number only dozens, hundreds, or thousands, at the most...

Wafa Sultan: Can you explain to me the killing of a hundred thousand children, women and men in Algeria, using the most abominable killing methods? Can you explain to me the killing of 15,000 Syrian civilians? Can you explain to me the abominable crime in the military artillery school in Aleppo? Can you explain the crime in Al-Asbaqiya neighborhood of Damascus, Syria? Can you explain the attack of the terrorists on the peaceful village of Al-Kisheh in Upper Egypt, and the massacre of 21 Coptic peasants? Can you explain to me what is going on in Indonesia, Turkey, and Egypt, even though these are Islamic countries which opposed the American intervention in Iraq, and which don't have armies in Iraq, yet were not spared by the terrorists? Can you explain these phenomena, which took place in Arab countries? Was all this revenge on America or Israel? Or were they merely to satisfy bestial wild instincts aroused in them by religious teachings, which incite to rejection of the other, to the killing of the other, and to the denial of the other. When Saddam Hussein buried 300,000 Shiites and Kurds alive, we did not hear a single Muslim protesting. Your silence served to acknowledge the legitimacy of these killings, didn't it?...

What do you want from me? To speak evil of the American society? I've never said that America is the eternal city of Plato, but I did say it was the eternal city of Wafa Sultan. The idealism of American society was enough to allow me to realize my humanity. I came to this country with fear.

Bin Muhammad:Along with the Indians? Along with the Indians? What was left of the Indians? What do you have to say about the Indians?

Wafa Sultan: Christopher Columbus discovered American in 1492. America was founded in 1776, approximately 300 years later. You cannot blame America – as a constitution, a regime, and a state – for killing the Indians.

[sereia 0]

i thought the Qur'an doesn't require hijab....but that it was a social habit that picked up over time as islam expanded? certainly one can be modest without a scarf covering their hair.

[peezey 0]

i thought the Qur'an doesn't require hijab....but that it was a social habit that picked up over time as islam expanded? certainly one can be modest without a scarf covering their hair.

Many people believe this to be true, others interpret things differently.

[peezey 0]

I don't know if I agree with the statements made about a person's point of view. I don't think that you always have to look at Islam from a Christian perspective just because you are a Christian. (But, I don't believe you can separate yourself 100% from your beliefs, either.) I believe that Christians, Jews, etc. can view Islam from a human perspective and completely understand GEG's feelings. I don't think that your religion hinders your ability to be human. Along those same lines, I don't believe that atheism or any one religion gives one an insight into other religions. Anyone can understand where GEG was coming from. People were making light of Islam and Islamic tenets in her opinion, whereas other religions don't get "harped" on (so to say) as much. This is not about the religion itsself, as much as it is about others quickness to dismiss her values as "take it or leave it". To her, this trivializes her beliefs, and it can happen to anyone in any religion. It happens every day.

I don't think you have to look at Islam from a Christian POV if you are Christian, either, however, the statements made were certainly not from a Muslim perspective. That was my whole point. It's not the Muslim POV to say "can't we just let everyone do what they want and express their faith as they see fit, and just be tolerant of it all?" In fact, it's not even a Christian or Jewish POV to say that. It's more of a western/American liberal POV to suggest such a thing. This is a trivialization in and of itself has very much to do with how one chooses to look at things that are different than what they live in their lives everyday.

[sereia 0]

so if many people interpret whether its necessary to wear one or not, whats wrong with interpreting how a hijab is worn? or interpreting their own meaning of "modesty".

[peezey 0]

Because Islam is nothing like Christianity. And while it's similar to Judaism in terms of obligations, it's still unique in its incrementalism and obligations. One can't look at Islam via Jewish or Christian POV and expect to understand what it is GEG is saying.

You are right about one thing for a change, Islam is nothing like Christianity or Judaism because I cannot think of any Christian or Jewish suicide bombers.

I thought having 2 IDs was against the rules?

[peezey 0]

so if many people interpret whether its necessary to wear one or not, whats wrong with interpreting how a hijab is worn? or interpreting their own meaning of "modesty".

There are a few things being discussed here. In terms of what is modest, I believe many people are posting about what they consider to be hypocritical hijab, ie, wearing hijab to attract attention or wearing hijab with tight jeans, etc. No one is discussing whether or not hijab is required, we've gone round that one many times in the past.

Then there are people that say "they they should be able to do what they want as a choice" but really in Islam, it's pretty clear what hijab/modesty means (not talking about a scarf here) and is insulting for a non-muslim to suggest how it is Islam should work.

Then there are people saying hijab has been forced on women so they should be able to wear fancy hijab, and well, that's just plain ignorant.

Edited May 19, 2007 by peezey

[kerewin21 2]

Islam is nothing like Christianity. For one thing, Muslims believe that Christianity is a perversion of God's Word. So to say, "Christians are divided into opinion groups about our faith, what's wrong with being like us?", which is essentially what you're saying, is no justification for condoning the confusion among Muslims about what's fashion and what's faith. Just because Christians lost their compass point long ago is no reason for Muslims to "celebrate" those among us losing theirs.

You probably make a better Christian than you make a Muslim, at this point, Sharon, because you really have no basis upon which to insist on what Islam allows or does not. So better that you stick to what you know and speak for them.

I make a lousy Christian because I'm not one. I know as much about Christianity as I do about Islam.

I'm out of this one... on matters of faith it's hard to take a reasoned opinion.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Islam is nothing like Christianity. For one thing, Muslims believe that Christianity is a perversion of God's Word. So to say, "Christians are divided into opinion groups about our faith, what's wrong with being like us?", which is essentially what you're saying, is no justification for condoning the confusion among Muslims about what's fashion and what's faith. Just because Christians lost their compass point long ago is no reason for Muslims to "celebrate" those among us losing theirs.

You probably make a better Christian than you make a Muslim, at this point, Sharon, because you really have no basis upon which to insist on what Islam allows or does not. So better that you stick to what you know and speak for them.

I make a lousy Christian because I'm not one. I know as much about Christianity as I do about Islam.

I'm out of this one... on matters of faith it's hard to take a reasoned opinion.

Actually, it's quite easy to take a reasoned position, if you have incentive to do so. If you have little or no emotional attachment to a faith or a practice, then your comments about what it stands for or what it requires can come across as insensitive to those who do. The "whatever feels good, do it" approach to Islam often expresssed here is insulting because does come from a western, liberal perspective rather than a faith based perspective, and relies on the idea that ANY boundaries, limitations and rules put upon human behavior and expression are oppressive and demeaning.

But, religion is about boundaries and living one's life according to the Word of God, however your faith interprets it. Islam, if you choose to accept it as your faith, does impose boundaries, limitations, and rules upon your behavior and expression. Whether one believes that hijab is required or not is beside the point. I personally don't, but won't go so far as to trivialize it's role as an important tradition of the faith either. It is widely accepted as a symbol of piety and sexual modesty in a woman, so wearing it is supposed to accomplish a measure of that. It is an effortlessly demonstrable measure.

In contrast, wearing headscarves to ATTRACT attention from men is not hijab, it is fashion. Not a thing wrong with modest fashion, imo; I don't believe that black is the only color that modesty can handle. Yet, trying to convince most practicing Muslims that wearing fancy headcovering in public to make you more attractive and draw admiring eyes to you is the same as the hijab many believe God commanded is quite disingenuous. So, simply calling it what is is is not limiting anyone's freedom to dress as they please, it's defining flamboyance in contrast to haya, and that merely amounts to fact. "If it feels good, do it" is not a rationally accepted tenet of the great faith of Islam. Sorry.

So, in the free world, one is allowed go out into the world as JLo or Fatima, your choice. Just don't present flamboyance as hijab because that's not what it is.

Edited May 19, 2007 by Green-eyed girl