This is the future of the Democratic Party?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

9 hours ago, Unidentified said:

Absolutely, you get more for yourself here if you're that selfish. I quite enjoyed knowing that, by paying taxes,  I was not only making sure that I could have any healthcare I needed without becoming piss poor or I could be paying for someone who needed a new hip. 

 

Everyone is focusing on the "well fare" side of it. And yes, I do believe Sweden is giving away a lot way too easy especially to asylum seekers at the moment. But it's not like you can apply for assistance and you'll get it, there's rules and Sweden is trying to crack down on people who use the system. Sadly they hit the wrong people and take away assistance for people who really can't work.

 

What I love about the Nordic model is that it helps people with no social safety net, for example older people with no children who can take care of them. They can get good healthcare and hopefully if they worked enough, a decent pension and there are limits to how much the rent can be to live in a home fore the elderly. 

 

Here in America I am actually worried about how it's going to be for me and my husband as we get older as we're probably not going to have children and therefor no one to take care of us when we get hold. America does not provide that safety net.  

“That selfish”, eh?  Is that what America is to you, full of selfish people?  And yet, here you are...

 

I am SO selfish that you will never pay a cent towards my health care.  Ever.  

Edited June 29, 2018 by Satisfied

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

10 hours ago, Unidentified said:

The average taxes is 40%, the higher ones are 60% as far as I am aware in Sweden. But do you know what I got?

 

• I got free school, including university (only paid for books at university level) and free school lunches (buffee style with two choices. Not at university level but from pre-k to end of high school) I didn't have to bring my own food. Perfect for children whose parent's can't afford to give their children food. 
• Heavily subsidized health care - I could go to the ER and pay only about $20 dollars to see a Dr have a bunch of test done and then pay for whatever medication I needed. You only pay full price of medicine up to a certain amount after that, they get heavily subsidized too. 
• If you are a member of the Swedish church and pay taxes to the church you don't have to worry about where you're getting buried and there's no requirement to actually be religious and go to church.  I'm an atheist and I was a member of the Swedish church. You don't have to pay for the plot your buried in, you only pay for stuff around it such as obituary, cremation etc.

 

Ok, so instead of talking about what things you “got for free”, let’s put it into perspective with some USD amounts (disregarding for the moment any exchange rates)...

If you made $75,000 in Sweden and taxed at 60%, you pay $45,000 per year. (Not sure if Sweden has a system like the US where one pays more up front, then gets a return if they over pay like the US?)

If you make $75,000 in the US, you will pay about $18,750.  But when you file your taxes, you will get back about $12,000, so your tax burden is only $6750.  

So in 5 years in Sweden, you will have paid $225,000, while in the US, you will have paid $33,750 (again, assuming Sweden doesn’t have a tax system like the US.  If they do, and people can get their overpayment of taxes back, then my math for them is not accurate.)

But if my numbers are anywhere near accurate, then you can see how your “free” college really wasn’t free.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

19 minutes ago, Satisfied said:

Ok, so instead of talking about what things you “got for free”, let’s put it into perspective with some USD amounts (disregarding for the moment any exchange rates)...

If you made $75,000 in Sweden and taxed at 60%, you pay $45,000 per year. (Not sure if Sweden has a system like the US where one pays more up front, then gets a return if they over pay like the US?)

If you make $75,000 in the US, you will pay about $18,750.  But when you file your taxes, you will get back about $12,000, so your tax burden is only $6750.  

So in 5 years in Sweden, you will have paid $225,000, while in the US, you will have paid $33,750 (again, assuming Sweden doesn’t have a tax system like the US.  If they do, and people can get their overpayment of taxes back, then my math for them is not accurate.)

But if my numbers are anywhere near accurate, then you can see how your “free” college really wasn’t free.

 

    Sweden has a progressive income tax just like us (and almost every other country). You are not charged 60% on your entire earned income, just the income above the highest tax bracket. A rough estimate - you would be looking at about 32% on the amount from $2000 to $50000, then 52% up to $75000. Not sure what deductions etc. apply. I just took that data from a chart.

 

   Not sure how you figured the US tax either. Just plugging the numbers into a calculator has an income tax burden of ~$10000 using the standard deduction. 

 

  

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

16 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

    Sweden has a progressive income tax just like us (and almost every other country). You are not charged 60% on your entire earned income, just the income above the highest tax bracket. A rough estimate - you would be looking at about 32% on the amount from $2000 to $50000, then 52% up to $75000. Not sure what deductions etc. apply. I just took that data from a chart.

 

   Not sure how you figured the US tax either. Just plugging the numbers into a calculator has an income tax burden of ~$10000 using the standard deduction. 

 

  

Interpolation.  $89K AGI is 10.43% ETR.  Figured 9% @ $75K.  Might be off a few 1/10 of a percent.

[jg121783 3,921]

4 hours ago, Satisfied said:

“That selfish”, eh?  Is that what America is to you, full of selfish people?  And yet, here you are...

 

I am SO selfish that you will never pay a cent towards my health care.  Ever.  

I guess somehow it is more selfish to take care of yourself with your own money than it is to expect others to foot the bill for you.

 

3 hours ago, Satisfied said:

Ok, so instead of talking about what things you “got for free”, let’s put it into perspective with some USD amounts (disregarding for the moment any exchange rates)...

If you made $75,000 in Sweden and taxed at 60%, you pay $45,000 per year. (Not sure if Sweden has a system like the US where one pays more up front, then gets a return if they over pay like the US?)

If you make $75,000 in the US, you will pay about $18,750.  But when you file your taxes, you will get back about $12,000, so your tax burden is only $6750.  

So in 5 years in Sweden, you will have paid $225,000, while in the US, you will have paid $33,750 (again, assuming Sweden doesn’t have a tax system like the US.  If they do, and people can get their overpayment of taxes back, then my math for them is not accurate.)

But if my numbers are anywhere near accurate, then you can see how your “free” college really wasn’t free.

Exactly. None of this stuff is actually free. Just because you didn't pay for it doesn't mean someone else didn't have to. Think about the college education and health care you could get if you invested that $225k (or even just sat on it rather than forking it over to the government).

[Unidentified 2,930]

7 hours ago, Satisfied said:

“That selfish”, eh?  Is that what America is to you, full of selfish people?  And yet, here you are...

 

I am SO selfish that you will never pay a cent towards my health care.  Ever.  

No, I don't see American's in general as selfish. Only those who with the mindset that all they want to do is something for "themselves". 

[Unidentified 2,930]

6 hours ago, Satisfied said:

Ok, so instead of talking about what things you “got for free”, let’s put it into perspective with some USD amounts (disregarding for the moment any exchange rates)...

If you made $75,000 in Sweden and taxed at 60%, you pay $45,000 per year. (Not sure if Sweden has a system like the US where one pays more up front, then gets a return if they over pay like the US?)

If you make $75,000 in the US, you will pay about $18,750.  But when you file your taxes, you will get back about $12,000, so your tax burden is only $6750.  

So in 5 years in Sweden, you will have paid $225,000, while in the US, you will have paid $33,750 (again, assuming Sweden doesn’t have a tax system like the US.  If they do, and people can get their overpayment of taxes back, then my math for them is not accurate.)

But if my numbers are anywhere near accurate, then you can see how your “free” college really wasn’t free.

What pay depends on how much you make and what bracket you're in as well as other factors such as deductions, how much you set aside for pension, if you're a member of the church etc. You will get money back after they have figured out how much of what you paid was too much. So no, your calculations are not accurate. 

[Unidentified 2,930]

3 hours ago, jg121783 said:

I guess somehow it is more selfish to take care of yourself with your own money than it is to expect others to foot the bill for you.

 

Exactly. None of this stuff is actually free. Just because you didn't pay for it doesn't mean someone else didn't have to. Think about the college education and health care you could get if you invested that $225k (or even just sat on it rather than forking it over to the government).

That's the thing though. As soon as people here that we have free health care etc they think in the way of being lazy and let other pay for you. That's not how I see it. I see it as:  I am paying taxes (or were since I don't live there anymore) so that everyone in Sweden can get heavily subsidized healthcare. It's not about me, me, me it's about us. It's about providing a social safety net for everyone. By paying taxes I am not only "taking care of myself" but I am taking care of others as well. 

[Unidentified 2,930]

3 hours ago, jg121783 said:

I guess somehow it is more selfish to take care of yourself with your own money than it is to expect others to foot the bill for you.

 

Exactly. None of this stuff is actually free. Just because you didn't pay for it doesn't mean someone else didn't have to. Think about the college education and health care you could get if you invested that $225k (or even just sat on it rather than forking it over to the government).

Yeah and imagine how many in this country can't afford that education but with free schools they could have and we, as a country, could have  a lot more highly skilled workers instead of having to bring in highly skilled workers from other countries...

[Keith & Arileidi 437]

17 minutes ago, Unidentified said:

Yeah and imagine how many in this country can't afford that education but with free schools they could have and we, as a country, could have  a lot more highly skilled workers instead of having to bring in highly skilled workers from other countries...

This actually works quite well for Germany. One of the world leaders of high tech manufacturing. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Keith & Arileidi

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

18 minutes ago, Unidentified said:

Yeah and imagine how many in this country can't afford that education but with free schools they could have and we, as a country, could have  a lot more highly skilled workers instead of having to bring in highly skilled workers from other countries...

 

1 minute ago, Keith & Arileidi said:

This actually works quite well for Germany. One of the world leaders of high tech manufacturing. 

I agree with this because we started going more towards vocational instead of technical training back in the late 80's early 90's. Now we are seeing that this was a bad way to go about doing things, and they are starting to do more technical training instead of vocational. I would gladly be happy for the state to pay for community/technical college for individuals going in to the technical fields.

[Keith & Arileidi 437]

4 hours ago, jg121783 said:

I guess somehow it is more selfish to take care of yourself with your own money than it is to expect others to foot the bill for you.

 

Exactly. None of this stuff is actually free. Just because you didn't pay for it doesn't mean someone else didn't have to. Think about the college education and health care you could get if you invested that $225k (or even just sat on it rather than forking it over to the government).

So are you saying that we shouldn't educate or medically treat our citizen because it costs money? 

 

That would be the LeBron James of productivity losses. 

[jg121783 3,921]

3 minutes ago, Keith & Arileidi said:

So are you saying that we shouldn't educate or medically treat our citizen because it costs money? 

 

That would be the LeBron James of productivity losses. 

No. I am saying government is the worst possible entity you could pick to efficiently manage anything money related. Especially a massive health care system.

[jg121783 3,921]

Also for all the leftists calling the rest of us selfish for not supporting socialist programs you should look in the mirror. Multiple studies have shown the left virtue signals the most about helping others but actually gives the least to charity.

[Unidentified 2,930]

10 minutes ago, jg121783 said:

Also for all the leftists calling the rest of us selfish for not supporting socialist programs you should look in the mirror. Multiple studies have shown the left virtue signals the most about helping others but actually gives the least to charity.

And yet Sweden have televised charity shows on for example breast cancer and other stuff each year that brings in millions...