Sarah Sanders says she was thrown out of Virginia restaurant because she works for Trump

[bcking 3,157]

1 minute ago, Bill & Katya said:

That really didn't answer my question though does it.  I thought that today, self-identity is considered paramount to anything else?  Is that not the case?  Do we all need to go to a neuropsychologist to find out our orientation?

How do we know that sexual orientation is not genetic?  Maybe we should be going to geneticists?

There is some evidence that there is a genetic component (some twin studies at least, I believe). You're free to ask a geneticist, but they will likely refer to their colleagues in neuropsychology.

 

Ultimately no one can tell you how you feel, so your self-identity is going to be the closest thing to the "truth" that anyone can reach. Our understanding of the changes in the brain that correlate with sexual orientation hasn't been developed to the point where we can use that as some sort of diagnostic. In lieu of a diagnostic test of any type, we have to rely on self identity. If we can get a neuropsychologist in here I'd love to hear their impression, but my understanding from when I studied the topic (IE - Not on google, actually in a classroom) was that unfortunately people may not "self-identity" with their actual feelings because of the fear and prejudice of truly expressing their feelings. So unfortunately "self-identity" can sometimes be flawed.

[Unidentified 2,930]

11 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

That really didn't answer my question though does it.  I thought that today, self-identity is considered paramount to anything else?  Is that not the case?  Do we all need to go to a neuropsychologist to find out our orientation?

How do we know that sexual orientation is not genetic?  Maybe we should be going to geneticists?

Well that would explain why you can't choose your orientation and maybe one day they can discover that gene and we will go to a geneticist for answers. 

 

Yes, today it's about self-identity and before that we went by the Kinsey Scale. It's an evolving science now that people are allowed to be more open to discover their sexuality and who they are attracted to compared to not that many years ago when everyone kind of had to be straight. 

 

Edit to add: The scary thing with finding genes is that then some people (religious fanatics most likely) will want to "cure" gay people if there's an actual gene for it. Which, after a quick google search, they might already have found or be close to finding it. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Unidentified

[Dashinka 24,492]

1 minute ago, Unidentified said:

Well that would explain why you can't choose your orientation and maybe one day they can discover that gene and we will go to a geneticist for answers. 

 

Yes, today it's about self-identity and before that we went by the Kinsey Scale. It's an evolving science now that people are allowed to be more open to discover their sexuality and who they are attracted to compared to not that many years ago when everyone kind of had to be straight. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, bcking said:

There is some evidence that there is a genetic component (some twin studies at least, I believe). You're free to ask a geneticist, but they will likely refer to their colleagues in neuropsychology.

 

Ultimately no one can tell you how you feel, so your self-identity is going to be the closest thing to the "truth" that anyone can reach. Our understanding of the changes in the brain that correlate with sexual orientation hasn't been developed to the point where we can use that as some sort of diagnostic. In lieu of a diagnostic test of any type, we have to rely on self identity. If we can get a neuropsychologist in here I'd love to hear their impression, but my understanding from when I studied the topic (IE - Not on google, actually in a classroom) was that unfortunately people may not "self-identity" with their actual feelings because of the fear and prejudice of truly expressing their feelings. So unfortunately "self-identity" can sometimes be flawed.

Since it is about self-identity, and as BK stated, some people may not follow their actual feelings, then isn't it a personal choice?  If not, then why not?

[bcking 3,157]

3 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

 

 

Since it is about self-identity, and as BK stated, some people may not follow their actual feelings, then isn't it a personal choice?  If not, then why not?

Because people's choices can been influenced by factors beyond how they feel. As I said - You may never act on your actual feelings, but that doesn't change your sexual orientation. If you have enduring attractions to the same sex, it doesn't matter if you never act on them. Your "action" of self-identifying can similarly be influenced by other factors beyond how you actually feel (social pressure).

 

That is the difference between your "choice" in the matter, and how you actually feel. You can't change your feelings, but you can change your actions. But your actions still don't change your feelings. Sexual orientation is about your feelings, not your actions. That was the core issue with IDWAF's initial understanding of the term. He stated he could just "have sex with anything" and suddenly his sexual orientation would be different. That's not the case.

Edited June 26, 2018 by bcking

[Unidentified 2,930]

Just now, Bill & Katya said:

 

 

Since it is about self-identity, and as BK stated, some people may not follow their actual feelings, then isn't it a personal choice?  If not, then why not?

There's still a big difference between who you fall in love with and who you decide to experiment with. Both straight women and men like to experiment with the same sex but that doesn't mean that they're going to fall in love with that person. Like we have said multiple times sexual orientation and sexuality is not the same thing. 

 

When we talk self-identity we mean that just because someone is homosexual he/she might not like that term and calls himself/herself something other than gay. Lots of people identify as the Q in LGBTQ but since it's also a derogatory term Visajourney will filter it out. There's also a lot more labels than just homosexual, heterosexual and bisexual. Pansexual for example. 

[bcking 3,157]

I wasn't intending to continue this discussion into a second day. People can learn for themselves about the subject from the proper sources, if they choose to. They can also continue to remain ignorant on the subject if they choose to. Continuing the discussion here won't change much.

[Dashinka 24,492]

1 minute ago, bcking said:

Because people's choices can been influenced by factors beyond how they feel. As I said - You may never act on your actual feelings, but that doesn't change your sexual orientation. If you have enduring attractions to the same sex, it doesn't matter if you never act on them. 

 

That is the difference between your "choice" in the matter, and how you actually feel. You can't change your feelings, but you can change your actions. But your actions still don't change your feelings. Sexual orientation is about your feelings, not your actions. That was the core issue with IDWAF's initial understanding of the term. He stated he could just "have sex with anything" and suddenly his sexual orientation would be different. That's not the case.

But you are talking about a definition of sexual orientation based on a pseudoscience.  What if they are wrong?  What if they label someone incorrectly?  Regardless, what you and UID demonstrated was that it can be a personal choice regardless of what anyone else says.

[bcking 3,157]

2 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

But you are talking about a definition of sexual orientation based on a pseudoscience.  What if they are wrong?  What if they label someone incorrectly?  Regardless, what you and UID demonstrated was that it can be a personal choice regardless of what anyone else says.

They wouldn't label someone beyond how the person self-identifies. That is a limitation in the science as it stands. We don't have a diagnostic test beyond the person's self-identification.

 

Though if a person presented for therapy due to "conflicting" feelings and actions, they may be encouraged to open their mind and realize that they may be self-identifying in a way that isn't perfectly honest with their internal feelings.

 

You still don't get the difference between the "choice" in the matter and feelings. Even the "choice" in self-identifying can still be separate from your feelings because your self-identity can be influenced by other outside factors. That doesn't change how you actually feel, which is NOT a personal choice. As I said, I don't think you'll get it from this discussion so I'm going to move on.

Edited June 26, 2018 by bcking

[Dashinka 24,492]

3 minutes ago, bcking said:

I wasn't intending to continue this discussion into a second day. People can learn for themselves about the subject from the proper sources, if they choose to. They can also continue to remain ignorant on the subject if they choose to. Continuing the discussion here won't change much.

 

[Unidentified 2,930]

3 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

But you are talking about a definition of sexual orientation based on a pseudoscience.  What if they are wrong?  What if they label someone incorrectly?  Regardless, what you and UID demonstrated was that it can be a personal choice regardless of what anyone else says.

No other person other than yourself can decide what you self identify as. 

[Dashinka 24,492]

Just now, bcking said:

They wouldn't label someone beyond how the person self-identifies. That is a limitation in the science as it stands. We don't have a diagnostic test beyond the person's self-identification.

 

Though if a person presented for therapy due to "conflicting" feelings and actions, they may be encouraged to open their mind and realize that they may be self-identifying in a way that isn't perfectly honest with their internal feelings.

 

You still don't get the difference between the "choice" in the matter and feelings. Even the "choice" in self-identifying can still be separate from your feelings because your self-identity can be influenced by other outside factors. That doesn't change how you actually feel, which is NOT a personal choice. As I said, I don't think you'll get it from this discussion so I'm going to move on.

And self-identity is a personal choice based on a number of internal and external factors, but it is still a choice.  I get the difference, you want everyone to follow their feelings, and I feel that some people may decide it is best to not follow their feelings.  Not sure one is better or worse, but it is still a personal choice and it doesn't mean a person needs some form of psychotherapy with either decision.

[Dashinka 24,492]

2 minutes ago, Unidentified said:

No other person other than yourself can decide what you self identify as. 

So by that response are you saying it is a personal choice?

[Unidentified 2,930]

Just now, Bill & Katya said:

So by that response are you saying it is a personal choice?

We have been trying to explain this to you for over two pages now. If you haven't understood it by now you probably never will. Why don't you do some of your own research instead? 

 

'Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.'

[Dashinka 24,492]

3 minutes ago, Unidentified said:

We have been trying to explain this to you for over two pages now. If you haven't understood it by now you probably never will. Why don't you do some of your own research instead? 

 

'Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.'

All you have demonstrated by your responses is that a person regardless of what some pseudoscience says still has a freedom of choice, but thanks for playing. 

 

Nice deflection by the way.

 

[bcking 3,157]

19 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

And self-identity is a personal choice based on a number of internal and external factors, but it is still a choice.  I get the difference, you want everyone to follow their feelings, and I feel that some people may decide it is best to not follow their feelings.  Not sure one is better or worse, but it is still a personal choice and it doesn't mean a person needs some form of psychotherapy with either decision.

Self-identity is a personal choice yes. Sexual orientation is not EXACTLY the same as self-identity (I agree it's quite close), and it is ultimately not a choice. Ideally your identity is based purely on your feelings, but unfortunately for some people that isn't always the case. You can have a self-identity and a sexual orientation that are incongruous because you a choosing your identity, but not your orientation. Unfortunately this is a real struggle that many people have, mostly because the external influences on your identity can be quite powerful (family and societal pressure, fear, etc...).

 

Here is a good summary on the "Sexual Orientation Change Efforts" - http://www.apa.org/about/policy/sexual-orientation.aspx

 

"Although there is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation, some individuals modified their sexual orientation identity (i.e., group membership and affiliation), behavior, and values (Nicolosi, Byrd, & Potts, 2000). They did so in a variety of ways and with varied and unpredictable outcomes, some of which were temporary (Beckstead & Morrow, 2004; Shidlo & Schroeder, 2002)."

 

I can choose to self-identify as a fish. I could join a club for fish, and I could affiliate with fish. I could sit in a pool and try to swim like a fish. I could value things that fish value (what do fish value?). None of that would mean I'm a fish. You can change how you identify, but you can't change who you are. Your feelings are part of who you are.

 

It is a challenge because no one else can tell you how you feel...but oftentimes keeping an identity that is incongruous with how you feel causes significant enduring psychological distress. Even if it doesn't, and you are effective at "masking" your actual feelings, the evidence suggests that they are still in there. You've changed your identify, but not your actual orientation. As I've already provided links to it - We are showing more and more how much it is "hardwired" and how there are structural and functional differences. You choosing to identify one way doesn't suddenly change those.

Edited June 26, 2018 by bcking