Immigrant Children Cry Out in Audio Recorded at Detention Center

[Dashinka 24,492]

7 minutes ago, bcking said:

Interesting.

 

If that is all being followed, the government should be able to put out some statistics regarding how many of the 1950 adults/2000 children were only "briefly separated" (IE - they followed the course in the first paragraph), and how many have aggravating factors, and how many are claiming asylum.

 

There is a lot of negative press on this. I would expect they would want to start put out some statistics that help paint it in a better light. If the majority of the children are only being separated for 1-2 days I personally would feel a bit better about the situation. If the parents have aggravating factors then, as hard as it may be, separation may be the best thing (at least temporarily). If they are claiming asylum, I find it sad that they still need to be separated. Yes some of those cases may be fraudulent but I can't imagine being someone who is actually genuine, reaching the border, and then realizing you now won't be able to see your children for 20+ days after fleeing horrible conditions where your life was at risk.

 

This is something that could be solved rather quickly, but unfortunately like similar issues in the past year or two (DACA, for example), it is being used as a bargaining chip. Trump is a pretty successful "spin doctor" when it comes to placing the blame on those who aren't actually in power...as if they somehow were the ones that decided to start doing this.

Would the media report it?  Up until late Sunday, the mainstream press appeared to be covering this in a nonchalant manner, then bam, it all gestapo tactics and concentration camps.  I agree, we do not know how many false claims of parenthood there are, but we do know that child trafficking is concern, and for some reason these folks are avoiding inspection at a POE, and one wonders why.  As others have said, DNA testing would be required and that takes some time particularly with the numbers.  Since the adults are being held due to their illegal border crossing, I would not advocate putting these children in prison with them any more than I would advocate for a child being put in lock up if their parent was arrested for a DUI, or something like that.

 

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

4 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Would the media report it?  Up until late Sunday, the mainstream press appeared to be covering this in a nonchalant manner, then bam, it all gestapo tactics and concentration camps.  I agree, we do not know how many false claims of parenthood there are, but we do know that child trafficking is concern, and for some reason these folks are avoiding inspection at a POE, and one wonders why.  As others have said, DNA testing would be required and that takes some time particularly with the numbers.  Since the adults are being held due to their illegal border crossing, I would not advocate putting these children in prison with them any more than I would advocate for a child being put in lock up if their parent was arrested for a DUI, or something like that.

 

Don't you know the IG report shut down the obstruction report about Trump. The MSM needs something new to wail about and get ratings 

[yuna628 9,676]

I hope to be a voice of some slight reason here, before this thread spirals too far down.

 

So here goes some points:... 

 

1) To some degree, we act as if what we are seeing now is something entirely new. It is sadly, not. In fact this also happened to immigrants coming through Ellis Island. I know because my great grandmother was there.

 

2) It's to my understanding that illegally entering immigrants would be separated from their children in the past. Especially if they were held in detention and especially if there were a question as to parentage.

 

3) Logically you would not place a child in an adult detention facility, it would not be the appropriate thing to do.

 

4) Asylum seekers are supposed to not have the family broken up. The current admin claims this is still the case... however, I can tell you they are not being honest about this. No one here may want to acknowledge that, but there have been many examples and I can find them if you'd like.

 

5) This admin is also changing the goalposts of criteria of what constitutes an asylum seeker. There have been some high profile cases recently involving women that the admin wants to reject in very heartless and appalling manner. It's offensive to me some of the cases and shockingly bad behavior.

 

6) Children who were unaccompanied or brought in with non relatives or trafficked were also detained in the past. Again, I'd like to know if the conditions were the same or not. Eventually many of these children end up in a foster or adoption case system. There is a very excellent book out there talking about this. Some of those institutions (receiving tax payer money) have actually lied to potential parents about the circumstances of how the child made it to the US. Their real parents never see the child again. The new parents have no idea the reality of what has happened.

 

7) I do not find that the conditions these children are being held in is satisfactory. And there is some evidence that because of the overwhelming amount the system cannot cope of their needs properly. We used to stand for humanity and compassion. This is an embarrassment. Many of you wont' agree with me on this. Some of you will say that the parents should have thought of this before, but to me this is no excuse. Bad behavior is not corrected by more bad behavior. The kids did not come here willingly. You would not want your kids housed like this. No child should be housed like this. Whether they be American or foreign born. At the current statistical rate this will be untenable. Each side knows it.

 

8) But if that's the way this administration wants to be, then I'd suggest that they stop being cowardly and own it. POTUS started it and can end it. He doesn't need Sessions blathering stupid falsehoods about Nazi Germany on tv, or rambling about the Bible which has as little weight on the law of this country than cat poo. Or sitting around shrugging until congress continues to do nothing. Or Having the DHS Sec, embarrass herself further by making conflicting statements contrary to what was just stated on this morning's conference call. If kids are going to be used to deter, own it. History will prove them wrong, but if that's the dice roll they want, then don't pretend otherwise.

 

9) I would like to know when the administration is going to strip the asylum claim and eventual green cards from the German family that was instructed to use the VWP, lie at the POE, overstay, fight deportation, and live/work illegally in the US.. and then finally claim asylum by the HSLDA. The previous admin was forced to kindly grant them asylum in spite of their fraud due to the political stink that was raised by certain individuals. If this current admin doesn't see fit to reward asylum fraud... just wondering.

 

10) I would hope that some of you in this thread that have their own kids and babies could look upon the situation with some compassion, instead of whataboutism. What solutions would you come up with to make the situation better for these children? I would hope we could agree the situation for these kids are not ideal no matter how they got there. How can we improve the conditions they are being housed in? Are we really going to trust the government's word without oversight that everything is fine? Could we remake facilities for family detention? Perhaps. But what difference is it if a child is in a cage as opposed to a cage with their parents? They may feel better, but a cage is a cage. So what is the solution?

 

 

 

 

 

[Randyandyuni 2,682]

1 hour ago, jb914 said:

After fleeing third world conditions that no doubt the critics and their families would likewise flee if faced with themselves (as perhaps many of our ancestors did when they came here).

 

Hardly a fair comparison to a US volunteer soldier leaving his children with his spouse.

isn't the fleeing third world conditions also a volunteer decision ?

[Dashinka 24,492]

13 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I hope to be a voice of some slight reason here, before this thread spirals too far down.

 

So here goes some points:... 

 

1) To some degree, we act as if what we are seeing now is something entirely new. It is sadly, not. In fact this also happened to immigrants coming through Ellis Island. I know because my great grandmother was there.

 

2) It's to my understanding that illegally entering immigrants would be separated from their children in the past. Especially if they were held in detention and especially if there were a question as to parentage.

 

3) Logically you would not place a child in an adult detention facility, it would not be the appropriate thing to do.

 

4) Asylum seekers are supposed to not have the family broken up. The current admin claims this is still the case... however, I can tell you they are not being honest about this. No one here may want to acknowledge that, but there have been many examples and I can find them if you'd like.

 

5) This admin is also changing the goalposts of criteria of what constitutes an asylum seeker. There have been some high profile cases recently involving women that the admin wants to reject in very heartless and appalling manner. It's offensive to me some of the cases and shockingly bad behavior.

 

6) Children who were unaccompanied or brought in with non relatives or trafficked were also detained in the past. Again, I'd like to know if the conditions were the same or not. Eventually many of these children end up in a foster or adoption case system. There is a very excellent book out there talking about this. Some of those institutions (receiving tax payer money) have actually lied to potential parents about the circumstances of how the child made it to the US. Their real parents never see the child again. The new parents have no idea the reality of what has happened.

 

7) I do not find that the conditions these children are being held in is satisfactory. And there is some evidence that because of the overwhelming amount the system cannot cope of their needs properly. We used to stand for humanity and compassion. This is an embarrassment. Many of you wont' agree with me on this. Some of you will say that the parents should have thought of this before, but to me this is no excuse. Bad behavior is not corrected by more bad behavior. The kids did not come here willingly. You would not want your kids housed like this. No child should be housed like this. Whether they be American or foreign born. At the current statistical rate this will be untenable. Each side knows it.

 

8) But if that's the way this administration wants to be, then I'd suggest that they stop being cowardly and own it. POTUS started it and can end it. He doesn't need Sessions blathering stupid falsehoods about Nazi Germany on tv, or rambling about the Bible which has as little weight on the law of this country than cat poo. Or sitting around shrugging until congress continues to do nothing. Or Having the DHS Sec, embarrass herself further by making conflicting statements contrary to what was just stated on this morning's conference call. If kids are going to be used to deter, own it. History will prove them wrong, but if that's the dice roll they want, then don't pretend otherwise.

 

9) I would like to know when the administration is going to strip the asylum claim and eventual green cards from the German family that was instructed to use the VWP, lie at the POE, overstay, fight deportation, and live/work illegally in the US.. and then finally claim asylum by the HSLDA. The previous admin was forced to kindly grant them asylum in spite of their fraud due to the political stink that was raised by certain individuals. If this current admin doesn't see fit to reward asylum fraud... just wondering.

 

10) I would hope that some of you in this thread that have their own kids and babies could look upon the situation with some compassion, instead of whataboutism. What solutions would you come up with to make the situation better for these children? I would hope we could agree the situation for these kids are not ideal no matter how they got there. How can we improve the conditions they are being housed in? Are we really going to trust the government's word without oversight that everything is fine? Could we remake facilities for family detention? Perhaps. But what difference is it if a child is in a cage as opposed to a cage with their parents? They may feel better, but a cage is a cage. So what is the solution?

 

 

 

 

 

7) Do you have first hand knowledge of the conditions, or what is just being reported?

 

10) What compassion are you looking for?  Detaining entire families?  Sending them off with a promise to appear before an immigration judge at some point in the future?  Opening the borders?  These kids are not in an ideal situation, but who is responsible for that?  I believe we do have oversight, it is called the House and the Senate.

 

 

[yuna628 9,676]

1 minute ago, Bill & Katya said:

7) Do you have first hand knowledge of the conditions, or what is just being reported?

 

10) What compassion are you looking for?  Detaining entire families?  Sending them off with a promise to appear before an immigration judge at some point in the future?  Opening the borders?  These kids are not in an ideal situation, but who is responsible for that?  I believe we do have oversight, it is called the House and the Senate.

 

 

I have seen and read enough from even conservative and libertarian sources to know those conditions are not appropriate. Again, I'd like to know if there is any oversight to ensure the safety and well being of these children.

 

I'm asking the same thing. Do you think we're behaving with compassion to these kids or that the conditions are appropriate? You agree they are not in an ideal situation, so is there something that we should be doing for those children to make what they are going through less difficult? Cruz is trying to get a bill in to house parents and kids together. Again, how will this improve their current conditions and does it address any of the logistic issues that may be problematic. When it comes to many immigration matters, POTUS has a great deal of oversight on a level congress doesn't want to acknowledge. Remember when K1s were so backed up? This forum took it to POTUS because it was clear that for all the little hearings and officials trying to help, no help would come. This is the current POTUS' administration, does he not have access to any smart persons to come up with solutions?

[Boiler 45,486]

Just now, yuna628 said:

I have seen and read enough from even conservative and libertarian sources to know those conditions are not appropriate. Again, I'd like to know if there is any oversight to ensure the safety and well being of these children.

 

I'm asking the same thing. Do you think we're behaving with compassion to these kids or that the conditions are appropriate? You agree they are not in an ideal situation, so is there something that we should be doing for those children to make what they are going through less difficult? Cruz is trying to get a bill in to house parents and kids together. Again, how will this improve their current conditions and does it address any of the logistic issues that may be problematic. When it comes to many immigration matters, POTUS has a great deal of oversight on a level congress doesn't want to acknowledge. Remember when K1s were so backed up? This forum took it to POTUS because it was clear that for all the little hearings and officials trying to help, no help would come. This is the current POTUS' administration, does he not have access to any smart persons to come up with solutions?

First thing that comes to mind is to to contact their Embassy, these children obviously need to be cared for.

 

That is what I would expect.

 

Say it was a US child trafficked what do you expect to happen, would you not expect Uncle Sam to jump in?

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

43 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Would the media report it?  Up until late Sunday, the mainstream press appeared to be covering this in a nonchalant manner, then bam, it all gestapo tactics and concentration camps.  I agree, we do not know how many false claims of parenthood there are, but we do know that child trafficking is concern, and for some reason these folks are avoiding inspection at a POE, and one wonders why.  As others have said, DNA testing would be required and that takes some time particularly with the numbers.  Since the adults are being held due to their illegal border crossing, I would not advocate putting these children in prison with them any more than I would advocate for a child being put in lock up if their parent was arrested for a DUI, or something like that.

 

its really that simple isnt it. I can see the media headline when some child gets raped by a gang member "Trump policy at Border allowing children to be raped"

[Dashinka 24,492]

8 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I have seen and read enough from even conservative and libertarian sources to know those conditions are not appropriate. Again, I'd like to know if there is any oversight to ensure the safety and well being of these children.

 

I'm asking the same thing. Do you think we're behaving with compassion to these kids or that the conditions are appropriate? You agree they are not in an ideal situation, so is there something that we should be doing for those children to make what they are going through less difficult? Cruz is trying to get a bill in to house parents and kids together. Again, how will this improve their current conditions and does it address any of the logistic issues that may be problematic. When it comes to many immigration matters, POTUS has a great deal of oversight on a level congress doesn't want to acknowledge. Remember when K1s were so backed up? This forum took it to POTUS because it was clear that for all the little hearings and officials trying to help, no help would come. This is the current POTUS' administration, does he not have access to any smart persons to come up with solutions?

What conditions would be appropriate in your mind?  As to making it less difficult for the children, what do you suggest?  I did say I agree they are not in an ideal situation, but it was the adults that brought them here that created that situation.  @Boiler has the best solution, put them in the care of their country's embassy/consulate.

2 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

its really that simple isnt it. I can see the media headline when some child gets raped by a gang member "Trump policy at Border allowing children to be raped"

It is a no win situation isn't it.

[TBoneTX 45,273]

2 hours ago, jb914 said:

fleeing third world conditions that no doubt the critics and their families would likewise flee

These people are poor by U.S. standards, but far less by world standards.

People in Somalia, South Sudan, et al. are quite literally starving to death.

These Central Americans are poor, but nowhere near that poor.

Is it the U.S.'s responsibility to solve poverty and starvation around the world?  Negatory.

Edited June 19, 2018 by TBoneTX

[TBoneTX 45,273]

1 hour ago, bcking said:

put out some statistics

Statistics, schmatistics.  This is a management problem.

 

   1.  These people's failure to plan (for whatever befalls them) does not constitute a crisis for us.

   2.  The monkeys need to be put onto the proper backs in terms of responsibility.

 

If these conditions are so deplorable, where's the action from the embassies involved?

Why aren't Americans phoning these countries' consulates to demand such action?

 

Who says that the U.S. is the only place where these people can come?

Why can't Panama take them?

Why can't Belize take them?

Why can't Argentina take them?

Why can't Sweden take them?

Why can't Niger take them?

Why can't Pitcairn Island take them?

 

The outraged need to explain the above before they continue throwing stones.

[TBoneTX 45,273]

1 hour ago, yuna628 said:

1.  Some of you will say that the parents should have thought of this before.

2.  You would not want your kids housed like this. No child should be housed like this.

1.  This is the entire heart of the matter.  Monkeys on the proper backs, please.

2.  Then those who object should get on the phone to the Ambassadors from these countries, or to the in-charge Consul at the regional consulates, and demand that they take action to repatriate their own citizens.

[Umka36 781]

20 minutes ago, TBoneTX said:

Statistics, schmatistics.  This is a management problem.

 

   1.  These people's failure to plan (for whatever befalls them) does not constitute a crisis for us.

   2.  The monkeys need to be put onto the proper backs in terms of responsibility.

 

If these conditions are so deplorable, where's the action from the embassies involved?

Why aren't Americans phoning these countries' consulates to demand such action?

 

Who says that the U.S. is the only place where these people can come?

Why can't Panama take them?

Why can't Belize take them?

Why can't Argentina take them?

Why can't Sweden take them?

Why can't Niger take them?

Why can't Pitcairn Island take them?

 

The outraged need to explain the above before they continue throwing stones.

Maybe the UN should setup a safe zone in a country in Central/South America (I'm guessing the US isn't the closest safe country for many of these refugees) for the refugees as they did for the Syrians in Turkey if this is a major crisis? From there you can file for asylum to whatever country.

 

 

[yuna628 9,676]

1 hour ago, Bill & Katya said:

What conditions would be appropriate in your mind?  As to making it less difficult for the children, what do you suggest?  I did say I agree they are not in an ideal situation, but it was the adults that brought them here that created that situation.  @Boiler has the best solution, put them in the care of their country's embassy/consulate.

It is a no win situation isn't it.

Not cages that's for sure, or anything that resembles a prison environment. One image did in fact showcase a prison bus with the seats filled with baby carriers. Where are these children going? We do not know where the babies, toddlers, and smaller children are. Why are representatives denied access? Some of these facilities are admittedly overcrowded. The adults brought them here, yes. But the current situation of housing them is one that is falling upon our responsibility to maintain. By some estimates in a few more months and the going rate, we will have 30k children. They are overcrowded now. This situation will not be remotely realistically feasible to maintain. Do you, as a parent, as a human being feel comfortable seeing children like this? Would you be comfortable with your child like this? Regardless of the actions you took to get your child there, would you be comfortable knowing your child was housed there?

1 hour ago, Boiler said:

First thing that comes to mind is to to contact their Embassy, these children obviously need to be cared for.

 

That is what I would expect.

 

Say it was a US child trafficked what do you expect to happen, would you not expect Uncle Sam to jump in?

As far as I am aware, the consulates are contacted. If their countries did not care enough about these individuals that brought them to desperately seek a better life in the US, you and I both know they will provide little support. I still very much believe that if many of them had a legal pathway to move here legally as a family unit and contribute, they would. You know there are not many legal pathways currently to support that.

44 minutes ago, TBoneTX said:

These people are poor by U.S. standards, but far less by world standards.

People in Somalia, South Sudan, et al. are quite literally starving to death.

These Central Americans are poor, but nowhere near that poor.

Is it the U.S.'s responsibility to solve poverty and starvation around the world?  Negatory.

Ah the ever present ''should we be the world police?'' question. Over-extending ourselves into world affairs can be seen as meddling. At the same time nationalism and protectionism is a reactionary policy that has proven to do little good in the long run. America has always been the last defending light of democracy and other decent moral principles. We were supposed to lead the way, and largely our founding concept was that a person from all walks of life and from whatever country and culture, could come here and unite under those principles for freedom. Throughout history we have seen what has happened to the world when these principles are not held to in other countries, and when that has threatened us too. We have seen what happens when we turn a blind eye and we have also seen what happens when we meddle not for the good of another country but for our own selfish wants.

 

1 minute ago, Umka36 said:

Maybe the UN should setup a safe zone in a country in Central/South America (I'm guessing the US isn't the closest safe country for many of these refugees) for the refugees as they did for the Syrians in Turkey if this is a major crisis? From there you can file for asylum to whatever country.

 

 

I have thought about this to some degree. Does the UN have a responsibility here and would this be feasible?

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

one of the problems is we have made it far too inviting and easy for them to come for far too long. Asylum my big fat hairy butt. That is what they are saying when they get caught. Its just an excuse. It needs to stop