Hamas' Jihad Mouse

[Scott & Lai 12]

And as for this video clip existing "independently" -- all the links that I’ve seen track right back to the Palestinian Media Watch as the source (note: it’s "PMW" -- not sure what your "PMR" is.) So if you actually find a clip that exists “independently,” as you claim, please post the link.

Are you suggesting the PMW created this thing?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Agree in general with the point WOM made - but not in comparison to "Hama-mouse". Both are pretty terrible on their own merits - without the need to use one as an excuse to say that the other is "worse".

As to the shells being "Smoke shells" - it seems to me that having kids joyfully writing on the sides of any live military hardware displays some disturbed pychology at work (however you look at it) - but then again I don't think anyone living in that situation can reasonably be described as "normal".

Actually, I never said one was "worse" -- it was LisaD who *claimed* that I said that. Please read my post again for clarification.

My point is pretty much what you've just said -- that both sides take part in this type of indoctrination of children.

Well you may not have said it was "as bad or worse" (to clarify) - but you clearly implied that by posting it in direct response to the OP article. I mean, whats wrong with just condemning the use of a cartoon character as a propaganda tool aimed at the youngest and most impressionable of people? I mean, why not just say "yes, its terrible"... which it is....

There isn't really any need to post old photos of Israeli kids from months ago in response to it. It's "####### for tat" as Lisa says, and more specifically it looks like you're trying to deflect criticism of the "Jihad Mouse" by dividing the topic along racial/political lines. I'm just not sure that's really necessary - you may be trying to point out the "other side of things", but the way you're advocating the Palestinian position in this thread, a person might be forgiven for thinking you are trying to defend the "Hamas Mouse" too. That doesn't really seem like "balance" to me.

[homesick_american 1]

Well you may not have said it was "as bad or worse" (to clarify) - but you clearly implied that by posting it in direct response to the OP article. I mean, whats wrong with just condemning the use of a cartoon character as a propaganda tool aimed at the youngest and most impressionable of people? I mean, why not just say "yes, its terrible"... which it is....

There isn't really any need to post old photos of Israeli kids from months ago in response to it. It's "####### for tat" as Lisa says, and more specifically it looks like you're trying to deflect criticism of the "Jihad Mouse" by dividing the topic along racial/political lines. I'm just not sure that's really necessary - you may be trying to point out the "other side of things", but the way you're advocating the Palestinian position in this thread, a person might be forgiven for thinking you are trying to defend the "Hamas Mouse" too. That doesn't really seem like "balance" to me.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

And finally.... on to Charles’ claim that what the girls are signing are actually “smoke shells” and merely "defensive" weapons (not that it really makes any difference as to my point that this is an example of indoctrinating children.) But as it turns out, it's even more egregious than I thought. Here is the comment that you mention making before (from the previous thread):

Ammunition 20mm and larger is color-coded IAW MIL-STD 709C (see Tables F-2 and F-3). Figure F-5 shows typical markings for an artillery round of ammunition.

color.............Fed Std No 595....................Interpretation

Light green....34558 or 34449......Identifies screening or marking smoke ammunition.

Now you cited tables and figures, but you didn't bother to post your link. However, you included enough information that I decided to do a bit of cross-checking. And it seems that you either didn't understand what you cut and pasted, or you've been deliberately "blowing smoke."

It's the paint on the body of the shell that indicates its contents, not the color of the "tip." The girls in the pics are signing shells with brown bodies -- this signifies High Explosive (HE), not marking smoke. To identify a marking smoke round, the whole body would be painted light green, not just the "tip."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...-30-13/appf.htm

The colored "tips" are actually the fuses, which don't have anything to do with indicating the contents of the shell. Fuses use different color codes than the projectile's body.

The different colors on the fuses indicate the various types. Some go "boom" on contact, after being armed by the "setback" jolt of being fired from the gun. Others have a timer, which can be set to go off at a certain time after "setback." The time of flight is so repeatable, based on powder load and elevation of the tube, that the shell can be set to explode form 10 to 100 feet above the ground. (This produces more devastation to humans than to tanks and buildings.)

I haven't found a table yet which shows the various color codes for different fuse types, so I'm not sure if the shells the girls are signing are set for explosion on contact, or for a delayed explosion.

But what is most significant: all the projectiles in the photos are already set with fuses. Now, shells are transported without the fuse attached, for safety reasons, and fuses are kept separate until the shells are actually prepared for firing. Israel does not follow all of the procedures which the US military follows, but it is doubtful that this many rounds would be armed in advance unless a high-intensity barrage had actually been ordered.

Note also that the schoolgirls are right there among the soldiers.

Now imagine what would happen if an unguided rocket would have happened to land in this artillery position and ammo dump. Many of these girls (along with some soldiers as well) would have been killed instantly.

you didn't ask for the link then, but now you do? oh please, i had it bookmarked and you should have asked for such then, not months later.

you're wrong on the body color of the shell. most of them are od green i know what it is, but you've still not hit on it yet now keep reading........

and the only reason an unguided rocket would land there is due to luck......

but hey, since we're on indoctrination of children, let me dig up some pics for you

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Now imagine what would happen if an unguided rocket would have happened to land in this artillery position and ammo dump. Many of these girls (along with some soldiers as well) would have been killed instantly.

Many of these three girls? Again, I don't see but three girls in these pictures. This doesn't seem to have been some kind of a mass attendance event.

Edited May 15, 2007 by ET-US2004

[GaryC 7]

Well you may not have said it was "as bad or worse" (to clarify) - but you clearly implied that by posting it in direct response to the OP article. I mean, whats wrong with just condemning the use of a cartoon character as a propaganda tool aimed at the youngest and most impressionable of people? I mean, why not just say "yes, its terrible"... which it is....

There isn't really any need to post old photos of Israeli kids from months ago in response to it. It's "####### for tat" as Lisa says, and more specifically it looks like you're trying to deflect criticism of the "Jihad Mouse" by dividing the topic along racial/political lines. I'm just not sure that's really necessary - you may be trying to point out the "other side of things", but the way you're advocating the Palestinian position in this thread, a person might be forgiven for thinking you are trying to defend the "Hamas Mouse" too. That doesn't really seem like "balance" to me.

For once I agree with you.

[Scott & Lai 12]

Well you may not have said it was "as bad or worse" (to clarify) - but you clearly implied that by posting it in direct response to the OP article. I mean, whats wrong with just condemning the use of a cartoon character as a propaganda tool aimed at the youngest and most impressionable of people? I mean, why not just say "yes, its terrible"... which it is....

There isn't really any need to post old photos of Israeli kids from months ago in response to it. It's "####### for tat" as Lisa says, and more specifically it looks like you're trying to deflect criticism of the "Jihad Mouse" by dividing the topic along racial/political lines. I'm just not sure that's really necessary - you may be trying to point out the "other side of things", but the way you're advocating the Palestinian position in this thread, a person might be forgiven for thinking you are trying to defend the "Hamas Mouse" too. That doesn't really seem like "balance" to me.

For once I agree with you.

Me, too...scary, isn't it?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Cos I'm really that "out there" aren't I...

[Mirorgate 0]

Cos I'm really that "out there" aren't I...

Pinko-commie ter'ist sympathizer that you are.... ready to admit to truth yet??

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Cos I'm really that "out there" aren't I...

Pinko-commie ter'ist sympathizer that you are.... ready to admit to truth yet??

That's too many labels for one sitting

[Mirorgate 0]

Cos I'm really that "out there" aren't I...

Pinko-commie ter'ist sympathizer that you are.... ready to admit to truth yet??

That's too many labels for one sitting

yet here you are.. wearing them all at one time

[mawilson 2,133]

They should call it "Hamaus".

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

They should call it "Hamaus".

That sounds a bit like a sub-human slave-race from an Edgar Rice-Burroughs novel.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Did anyone else notice that the actual turnout for this signing event must have sucked seeing that the same two gals are "dedicating" the ammo in all three pics. One could almost think that this is somewhat staged for the camera?

Actually, there has been a background story about the incident circulated on a blog, although its explanation has not been picked up by mainstream Israeli media (probably because it makes the parents AND the army look even stupider.)

The blog says that these children are from Kiryat Shmona (an Israeli town in the far north, very near the border of Lebanon.) It doesn't say how many children were in the group. I can see 2 different girls signing shells, also a third older girl in a striped top standing in the background holding a camera, and a fourth older girl (this may actually be a young woman) in an orange top who is also standing in the background. She is also holding something in her hand -- could be a camera from the way she seems to be holding it, but it's hidden by one of the girl's heads.

OK... according to the blog, the girls had been staying in a bomb shelter, and this was their first "outing" in 5 days. It explains that a new army unit had "just arrived in town" and was preparing to shell the area across the border, and says that a dozen photographers had gathered at the scene for the photo op. The blogger goes on to state (and in apparently absolute seriousness) that "the girls and their families" were "interested to check out the big attraction in town -- foreigners"... so of course they all headed over to the tank position which was getting ready to engage in a bit of heavy warfare.

The description gets even more surreal. The girls, says the blogger, were feeling "relieved" and "a bit giddy" at being "outdoors in the fresh air for the first time in days." It concludes that the children must have "felt like stars" in front of all the photographers. (Apparently taking children to "visit" an army position which is about to launch heavy artillery is the perfectly normal thing to do in the middle of a war.) The blogger even goes so far as to claim that the girls had "no idea" that tank shells cause human deaths.

Well. If that's not enough to make you LOL, the blogger then heaps almost the entire blame on the "irresponsible" photographers (which included Israelis as well as international press) for taking pics which were then circulated and "misinterpreted." It does grudgingly concede that perhaps the parents "were not wise" to allow photos to be taken. But not a word of criticism about the serious danger that these kids were being exposed to, while their families beamed and (apparently) took a few "holiday snaps" of their own.

[Caladan 19]

Do Israeli shell casings follow U.S. military protocol?

It's bad to indoctrinate children with hatred, but it's foolish to pretend that it's only going on on the Palestinian side, or the Israeli side. Heck, I'm pretty sure you can get infant onesies in camo patterns and I'm sure I could put together a photoset that would make it look like we begin indoctrinating American kids to join the jihad crusade fight against the global ickiness while they're in diapers.

I wouldn't put too much weight on Hamas' Jihad Mouse. If the little Palestinian kids are going to radicalize, they're probably going to do it because they're living in a war zone, regardess of cartoon characters.