Hillary Clinton: Santa Fe School Shooting Should Inspire ‘Soul Searching,’ Gun Control

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

2 hours ago, jg121783 said:

I know stealing guns in some states is considered armed robbery.

Say what?  I think you might have that backwards.  Stealing a gun is theft.  Stealing something while using a gun is armed robbery, from my experience. 

[jg121783 3,915]

 

2 hours ago, bcking said:

I'm saying we shouldn't make stealing illegal, based on the original reasoning in the first post.

 

If thieves are going to steal whether it is illegsl or not, why bother making it illegal?

Apparently you don't understand the reasoning of the first post then. I was arguing that we shouldn't pass laws that are totally ineffective AND violate the rights of law abiding citizens. Laws against theft don't violate anyone's rights. Apple's and oranges.

 

2 hours ago, bcking said:

How is that irrelevant?

 

What are you proposing to keep our children safe? Armed guards? Armed teachers? Metal detectors?

 

Why don't other first world countries need those things to protect children? Why do we need MORE guns for protection when other places get by with less?

 

I get sick of trying to explain our situation to my wife's family. It makes no sense to them (or her, or me honestly). America just seems like a horribly violent, dangerous place for children...and for no real reason.

This is an example of perception being different from reality. The FBI says the reality of the situation is guns are used to prevent crimes many more times than they are used to commit crimes. I know the corporate media would have us believe otherwise so I understand the confusion.

 

39 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

Say what?  I think you might have that backwards.  Stealing a gun is theft.  Stealing something while using a gun is armed robbery, from my experience. 

The way the law works in some states is once you have that stolen gun in your hands and you are engaged in the act of theft it is at that point considered armed robbery. I know it's a little confusing but if you think about it the burglar could potentially use the stolen gun to continue committing the crime.

[bcking 3,157]

4 minutes ago, jg121783 said:

This is an example of perception being different from reality. The FBI says the reality of the situation is guns are used to prevent crimes many more times than they are used to commit crimes. I know the corporate media would have us believe otherwise so I understand the confusion.

 

I'm not talking about crime and violence in general, but specific to school shootings.

 

In other countries are their no school shootings because they have more gun or armed guards to keep students safe? I don't think so.

 

If it's not our number of guns that make school a danger to our children, then what is it?

 

It is objectively more dangerous to go to school in the USA than it is in Canada, Australia, UK. Why is that?

 

Adding guards, arming teachers, creating single entrances with metal detectors. That may all make students safer but why do we need to do those things in the first place when other countries don't?

 

To me it's the "price of freedom". Specifically the price we pay for the 2nd amendment. Some of us have to lose our children to crazy murderers so that other people can hold onto their guns.

 

If it's not that, then what is it? 

[Boiler 45,479]

9 minutes ago, bcking said:

I'm not talking about crime and violence in general, but specific to school shootings.

 

In other countries are their no school shootings because they have more gun or armed guards to keep students safe? I don't think so.

 

If it's not our number of guns that make school a danger to our children, then what is it?

 

It is objectively more dangerous to go to school in the USA than it is in Canada, Australia, UK. Why is that?

 

Adding guards, arming teachers, creating single entrances with metal detectors. That may all make students safer but why do we need to do those things in the first place when other countries don't?

 

To me it's the "price of freedom". Specifically the price we pay for the 2nd amendment. Some of us have to lose our children to crazy murderers so that other people can hold onto their guns.

 

If it's not that, then what is it? 

I can think of all sorts of reasons why ot could be but they are societal and are unlikely to change any time soon, maybe direct you questions to the ACLU, BLM, NAACP etc etc etc.

 

Anyway the situation is what it is and has to be dealt with.

 

I am not sure if you are reading any of the replies, yes we had gun ranges in schools etc and no there were not any mass shootings.

[jg121783 3,915]

2 hours ago, bcking said:

If it's not our number of guns that make school a danger to our children, then what is it?

We have had more private ownership of guns than any other country on Earth for many decades and the school shooting issue is a fairly recent thing. In fact years ago it used to be common for kids to bring guns to school to participate in the shooting club or go hunting after school. The number of guns wasn't an issue back then so how is it now?

 

The other thing that we have more of than any other nation on Earth is people who are on SSRIs. Like the rise in school shootings this is also a fairly recent thing. In fact all the school shooters in the last few decades that I am aware of were on SSRIs. A much better argument can be made that SSRIs are more of a contributing factor than the availability of guns is.

[Dashinka 24,491]

3 hours ago, bcking said:

I'm not talking about crime and violence in general, but specific to school shootings.

 

In other countries are their no school shootings because they have more gun or armed guards to keep students safe? I don't think so.

 

If it's not our number of guns that make school a danger to our children, then what is it?

 

It is objectively more dangerous to go to school in the USA than it is in Canada, Australia, UK. Why is that?

 

Adding guards, arming teachers, creating single entrances with metal detectors. That may all make students safer but why do we need to do those things in the first place when other countries don't?

 

To me it's the "price of freedom". Specifically the price we pay for the 2nd amendment. Some of us have to lose our children to crazy murderers so that other people can hold onto their guns.

 

If it's not that, then what is it? 

You tell us.  We had as many guns around when I was in school, we had gun and archery clubs and many students even had guns in their vehicles for after school activities like those clubs or hunting.  There were no “gun free zones” posted anywhere, and very little control of building access.  School shootings were extremely rare back then.  So what has changed?  Why are these kids (most of these shootings are being done by students) all of the sudden using lethal force on their fellow students?  To me it seems there is a mentality change as to how kids are treated today, same may say coddled.  It has taken many years for this to happen, but it seems to be related to the way we have injected psychology into raising kids.

[Neonred 3,562]

1 hour ago, Bill & Katya said:

You tell us.  We had as many guns around when I was in school, we had gun and archery clubs and many students even had guns in their vehicles for after school activities like those clubs or hunting.  There were no “gun free zones” posted anywhere, and very little control of building access.  School shootings were extremely rare back then.  So what has changed?  Why are these kids (most of these shootings are being done by students) all of the sudden using lethal force on their fellow students?  To me it seems there is a mentality change as to how kids are treated today, same may say coddled.  It has taken many years for this to happen, but it seems to be related to the way we have injected psychology into raising kids.

Moral decay in the USA.

 

On a related note, did you hear about two bikers in WA that were attacked by a cougar?  One died and the other badly injured.  If they had been carrying they would likely have survived with minimal injury.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

9 hours ago, bcking said:

I'm not talking about crime and violence in general, but specific to school shootings.

 

In other countries are their no school shootings because they have more gun or armed guards to keep students safe? I don't think so.

 

If it's not our number of guns that make school a danger to our children, then what is it?

 

It is objectively more dangerous to go to school in the USA than it is in Canada, Australia, UK. Why is that?

 

Adding guards, arming teachers, creating single entrances with metal detectors. That may all make students safer but why do we need to do those things in the first place when other countries don't?

 

To me it's the "price of freedom". Specifically the price we pay for the 2nd amendment. Some of us have to lose our children to crazy murderers so that other people can hold onto their guns.

 

If it's not that, then what is it? 

No way I can agree with this.

 

 

4 hours ago, Neonred said:

Moral decay in the USA.

 

On a related note, did you hear about two bikers in WA that were attacked by a cougar?  One died and the other badly injured.  If they had been carrying they would likely have survived with minimal injury.

Now this, I can get behind 110%.

 

Talked to a guy from Russia today (not the ones that got Trump elected, so don’t cast stones).  His response to why we have such a problem with the murder of innocent people in America??  “It’s all those violent, blood-splattering, gory killing games everyone is playing today.  If you were to show someone from 1950 a movie from today, they would likely go into shock.”  Couldn’t disagree with his logic.

Edited May 21, 2018 by IDWAF

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

3 hours ago, IDWAF said:

No way I can agree with this.

 

 

Now this, I can get behind 110%.

 

Talked to a guy from Russia today (not the ones that got Trump elected, so don’t cast stones).  His response to why we have such a problem with the murder of innocent people in America??  “It’s all those violent, blood-splattering, gory killing games everyone is playing today.  If you were to show someone from 1950 a movie from today, they would likely go into shock.”  Couldn’t disagree with his logic.

I agree . You can't completely discount the desensitization of kids to gory violence 

[Dashinka 24,491]

5 hours ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

I agree . You can't completely discount the desensitization of kids to gory violence 

I sort of agree with this.  Sure, we had some violent cartoons back in my childhood days, but nothing as realistic as some of the stuff available today.  I still think it runs a bit deeper though.  I remember being bullied, or teased, at various times while growing up, I was taught to suck it up.  Do we teach kids this kind of mentality anymore?

[bcking 3,157]

4 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

I sort of agree with this.  Sure, we had some violent cartoons back in my childhood days, but nothing as realistic as some of the stuff available today.  I still think it runs a bit deeper though.  I remember being bullied, or teased, at various times while growing up, I was taught to suck it up.  Do we teach kids this kind of mentality anymore?

On the other hand...

 

My wife's generation in the UK grew up on Watership Down. I don't think there are any modern cartoons quite as violent, gory and downright traumatizing.

 

She didn't turn out to be a murderer (yet...)

 

Last month she also played for me another "childhood gem" called Goodnight Mr. Tom. She would watch it at like age 8. Boy gets beaten and molested, and cradles his infant sister in a closet until she dies. Oh and his best friend dies in the Blitz. Not necessarily gory but talk about adult material for a young child.

Edited May 21, 2018 by bcking

[Boiler 45,479]

 

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

34 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

I sort of agree with this.  Sure, we had some violent cartoons back in my childhood days, but nothing as realistic as some of the stuff available today.  I still think it runs a bit deeper though.  I remember being bullied, or teased, at various times while growing up, I was taught to suck it up.  Do we teach kids this kind of mentality anymore?

Not only that, I dont think you can compare a Tom and Jerry cartoon, to something like GTA, in which you are an active shooter blowing cops away 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

33 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

I sort of agree with this.  Sure, we had some violent cartoons back in my childhood days, but nothing as realistic as some of the stuff available today.  I still think it runs a bit deeper though.  I remember being bullied, or teased, at various times while growing up, I was taught to suck it up.  Do we teach kids this kind of mentality anymore?

I loved me some Wiley E. And Roadrunner.  Or Elmer and Bugs.  But GTA#, BF#, MW#, etc. are a LOT different.  It seems the more blood, guts, stealing, running people over, prostitutes (and so on) the more popular the game.  

 

I think kids BELIEVE they can handle the gore based on practicing it in the simulator at home.  I suspect the recent kid in TX found out that he was NOT well prepared for the reality of his onslaught, and the suffering he caused.

[Sonea 138]

On 5/20/2018 at 7:53 AM, bcking said:

How is that irrelevant?

 

What are you proposing to keep our children safe? Armed guards? Armed teachers? Metal detectors?

 

Why don't other first world countries need those things to protect children? Why do we need MORE guns for protection when other places get by with less?

 

I get sick of trying to explain our situation to my wife's family. It makes no sense to them (or her, or me honestly). America just seems like a horribly violent, dangerous place for children...and for no real reason.

An evaluation of the implementation of media guidelines has been conducted in Austria.17,18,23 Following implementation of media guidelines for news reporting by the Austrian Association for Suicide Prevention in 1987, a significant decline in suicide rates occurred within the first year (7% decline). In the 4-year period following implementation, the suicide rate decreased nearly 20%, with an even sharper decline (75%) in subway suicides (a particular focus of the media guidelines).

 

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/hs/medical/bioethics/nyspi/material/SuicideAndTheMedia.pdf

 

 

Mass shootings are a contagion. There is a positive feedback loop that occurs after a shooting. In the last decade we have had two such loops. The first lasted about a year and a half (2012/2013). We are still in the second loop that started in 2015. 

 

If we act similar to Vienna with a blackout of the attacker then I think we can break the current loop and stop future ones. I'm not saying that will end attacks, but they should statistically be less frequent and more spread-out.  In this case I'm always surprised  when they name them since they are minors.

 

Heck US media is willing to blackout someone running on to the pitch at game...wonder why they do that?....to minimise future fans doing the same.

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Sonea