IS IT EVER HOPELESS????

[Caladan 19]

I want to also add that I would also question a more than 20 year age difference between a USC and a beneficiary (no matter the country or the gender). This regularly does not happen in most cultures.

Casa can be intimidating. However, they are trying to do their job with little staff and even less funding. If they truly question the validity of the relationship, they don't have the time or resources to investigate or even schedule another interview. It is much easier if the case is not laid out in front of them in the petition to send it back and let USCIS deal with it.

SO, one more question. If the case gets sent back to the USCIS, does somebody here in the USA decide the case? Does that mean we get to add more evidence before they decide it? And is the decision final or can we keep appealing it? Thanks for the info!! Debbie

ONE MORE THING TO ALL READING THIS POST: Hamid was invited by a friend who owns a business to move to England and this guy would sponsor him. But he didn't do it. His brother lives in Spain and wanted him to come there to be with him, but Hamid didn't want to leave Morocco. He also has a friend in Italy who wanted him to come there, but he didn't want to. Also, he would just as soon stay there and have me move there, but I can't do that due to health insurance and such. So, my point is, he has had more than once chance to leave Morocco if that was his reason for wanting a visa. Believe it or not... that is your choice. I am trying my best not to judge people on this site, and I would respectfully ask you to do the same. Yes, we have an age difference, but he looks older and I look younger. Go figure....People don't always fall in love with folks that other people deem appropriate, but only God can figure that one out. Thanks for listening! Debbie

Read what I wrote, because if all you got out of the post was "Caladan is saying my relationship is fraudulent", you really need to re-read it. I did not say Hamid is using you for a visa. Really. Re-read the whole thing. I didn't even mention age gaps as a red flag. How could I possibly be judging your relationship based on that when I don't know how old you are?

Okay? This isn't about attacking you. Re-read it. Not attacking you. Saying there is a high-ish rate of fraud in Morocco is not. attacking. you. Read some of the posts here.

I am not saying that your relationship is fraudulent. I am saying, however, that you need to be honest with yourself about what your case could look like to a consular officer before you decide, before you have your NOA2, that you're being discriminated against.

And it is more than just an age gap. People with age gaps get approved. Language, religion, your familiarity, the culture, his educational background, whether you're Arab, how you met, how long you've known each other. It seems that it's not just any one thing (why a discrimination suit is going to fail, by the way), but whether when the consulate looks at the application they get a sense of whether you're legit or not.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

BTW -- Consulates certainly DO question couples about religious differences, language differences, etc. We have seen several cases sent back after extensive questioning along these lines.

We may not agree with their reasoning about specific issues, but Consulates are the designated experts on determining what may be considered fraud. If -- based on their extensive experience in handling cases -- they consider a large age gap as a major reason to scrutinize an application, then that's the way the cookie crumbles. It's their prerogative. What a non-Consular official personally deems to be a "bigger" red flag, or "normal" or "not normal" -- this is really beside the point.

Obviously, from what our members here have told us, the Morocco Consulate looks at age gaps very closely. So let us continue discussing the issue which is affecting so many couples at the interview stage.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Age gap couples DO get approved quite often, but then so do couples with language, cultural, economic and ethnic disparities. It only goes to prove that age is not more of a mitigatibg factor, just one of many, so concentrating on it and constantly trying to elevate it as a problem over other considerations is non-productive. What you have in common or not is far more relevant than age.

Afterall, COs are looking at your relationship as believable or not primarily from the cultural vantage point of the beneficiary who would be committing the fraud, and age differences are less of an issue in the US than they are in the Arab world. As are cross ethnic, cross cultural, cross racial, cross economic issues. Those are each more relevent overseas than they are here, and that is the side the bread is buttered on.

It does a disservice to our members to continue to shunt aside mitigating issues that are most common among you - language, race, ethnicity, economics, tradition, etc., but it comes on good authority that these are challenged quite often and are valid considerations to make when going thru the process. Do not devalue them. They are as real as age gaps.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Marriednow 4]

I want to also add that I would also question a more than 20 year age difference between a USC and a beneficiary (no matter the country or the gender). This regularly does not happen in most cultures.

Casa can be intimidating. However, they are trying to do their job with little staff and even less funding. If they truly question the validity of the relationship, they don't have the time or resources to investigate or even schedule another interview. It is much easier if the case is not laid out in front of them in the petition to send it back and let USCIS deal with it.

SO, one more question. If the case gets sent back to the USCIS, does somebody here in the USA decide the case? Does that mean we get to add more evidence before they decide it? And is the decision final or can we keep appealing it? Thanks for the info!! Debbie

ONE MORE THING TO ALL READING THIS POST: Hamid was invited by a friend who owns a business to move to England and this guy would sponsor him. But he didn't do it. His brother lives in Spain and wanted him to come there to be with him, but Hamid didn't want to leave Morocco. He also has a friend in Italy who wanted him to come there, but he didn't want to. Also, he would just as soon stay there and have me move there, but I can't do that due to health insurance and such. So, my point is, he has had more than once chance to leave Morocco if that was his reason for wanting a visa. Believe it or not... that is your choice. I am trying my best not to judge people on this site, and I would respectfully ask you to do the same. Yes, we have an age difference, but he looks older and I look younger. Go figure....People don't always fall in love with folks that other people deem appropriate, but only God can figure that one out. Thanks for listening! Debbie

Read what I wrote, because if all you got out of the post was "Caladan is saying my relationship is fraudulent", you really need to re-read it. I did not say Hamid is using you for a visa. Really. Re-read the whole thing. I didn't even mention age gaps as a red flag. How could I possibly be judging your relationship based on that when I don't know how old you are?

Okay? This isn't about attacking you. Re-read it. Not attacking you. Saying there is a high-ish rate of fraud in Morocco is not. attacking. you. Read some of the posts here.

I am not saying that your relationship is fraudulent. I am saying, however, that you need to be honest with yourself about what your case could look like to a consular officer before you decide, before you have your NOA2, that you're being discriminated against.

And it is more than just an age gap. People with age gaps get approved. Language, religion, your familiarity, the culture, his educational background, whether you're Arab, how you met, how long you've known each other. It seems that it's not just any one thing (why a discrimination suit is going to fail, by the way), but whether when the consulate looks at the application they get a sense of whether you're legit or not.

NO NO NO--I WASN'T SAYING ANYBODY WAS JUDGING ME. NO WAY. I'M JUST PREPARING IN CASE SOMEBODY FEELS THE NEED TO BLAST ME (FROM READING SOME PREVIOUS POSTS). ANWAY, I TRULY UNDERSTAND THE AGE THING AND ALL THE OTHER RED FLAG ISSUES. I'M NOT A TOTAL MORON (HEE, HEE, WELL HALF MAYBE, JK) .

ANYWAY, I AM TRULY GRATEFUL FOR ALL AND ANY INFO AND ADVICE. NOT BEING CRITICAL OF ANYBODY HERE IN THE LEAST. I AM SOOOO GLAD THAT THERE ARE FOLKS HERE TO HELP THE NEW ONES FIGURE OUT HOW TO WORK ON THIS VISA STUFF. AND I UNDERSTAND WE HAVE TO STEP BACK AND LOOK AT IT FROM THE CONSULATE'S PERSPECTIVE. MY THOUGHT IS, IF WE HANG IN THERE FOR SEVERAL YEARS, I CAN'T SEE HOW THEY CAN KEEP IGNORING US AND THE SERIOUSNESS OF OUR RELATIONSHIP. I IMAGINE THAT IF A GUY WAS REALLY LOOKING FOR A WAY TO THE USA OR ANYWHERE ELSE, THEY WOULD MOVE ON AFTER A WHILE AND TRY TO FIND A BETTER PERSON TO USE. AND IN DEFENSE OF MOROCCAN MEN, I HAVE HEARD FROM A FEW WOMEN ON OTHER SITES THAT ARE TREATING THESE GUYS LIKE DIRT--PLAYING GAMES, LEADING THEM ON WHEN THEY ARE MARRIED OR ALREADY HAVE SIGNIFICANT OTHERS , ETC. BUT THEN AGAIN, I GUESS THAT'S LIFE ONLINE. IT'S LIKE, LET THE CHATTER BEWARE-- B)

ANYWAY.......TO ANSWER SOMEBODY THAT WONDERED IF I GET HIT ON BY YOUNGER MEN. THE ANSWER IS YES, I HEAR FROM LOTS OF YOUNGER MEN THAT LIKE OLDER WOMEN, WITH AGES FROM 18 UP. AND LOTS WANT A SERIOUS RELATIONSHIP, SO IT'S NOT LIKE HAMID IS THE FIRST ONE THAT I HAVE CHATTED WITH, ETC. THERE ARE LOTS OF YOUNG MEN THAT ARE SEEKING RELATIONSHIPS WITH OLDER WOMEN, AND NOT NECESSARILY JUST FOR SEX, BUT THAT'S ANOTHER ISSUE. I WILL POST A PIC WHEN I FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET IT DONE. FOR SOME REASON, IT SAYS THE PICS ARE TOO BIG. BELIEVE ME, AFTER HEARING FROM PROBABLY 500-600 GUYS ALL OVER THE WORLD IN THE 8 MONTHS I WAS ON, A PERSON CAN USUALLY SPOT FRAUD AND BS A MILE AWAY. I KNOW THEY ARE OUT THERE LURKING, LOL ANYWAY, HOPE THIS HELPS ADDRESS SOME OF YOUR QUESTIONS.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Older women being hit on by younger men is a growing phenomenon. When I was single, it happened to me quite frequently, and almost exclusively be Arab men, as I am easily identifiable as Arab to other Arabs, and I live in an area heavily populated by immigrants.

From my experience, I would say that the mystique of the foreign woman, and, no offense meant, the foreign white woman, is a draw for some. You can be as exotic to them as they can be to you.

[Caladan 19]

I wouldn't place too much stock in being hit on by 500-600 guys over the world on the internet as validation of anything except that the Internet is a weird place populated by horny men. But it's good that you're at least familiar with the dynamics of online chatting, at least.

[sereia 0]

where would you even meet 500-600 international men online? is this a dating website you joined? a message board? hmm maybe i'll make a poll.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I've always said that a large age gap is merely one piece of the overall puzzle. A lot of folks with a substantial difference in age have been approved. And there have been cases involving couples who were of similar ages, and both of Arab heritage or both of the same faith, that were returned.

However, it must be pointed out that if you look at the cases we've seen here on VJ that were sent back in Casa, the great majority DO involve an age gap -- it's the common factor that jumps right out at you. (I am not saying it was the only factor -- I am sure that the Consulate considered all other issues as well before making a final decision.)

But from the record we've seen here, being a "cross-cultural" couple does not seem to be setting off as much scrutiny at the Consulate as do the following: a large age gap, a questionable ability to communicate in a common language, a close relationship with the SO's family members/friends before meeting/marrying/becoming engaged to the SO, or money being exchanged. Age is not the only factor, but it is apparently one to which the Casablanca Consulate pays a whole lot of attention.

I guess what I'm trying to say is -- it's not just a matter of people here in VJ focusing on it. In Morocco, the Consulate itself (whether one agrees with the reasoning or not) is looking very intently at the issue of age difference when putting the pieces of the puzzle together. It's been a common factor in returned case after returned case. Apparently, Casa has seen a lot of fraud involving this type of situation, hence their close attention to it. It doesn't mean an age factor will get you an automatic denial -- of course not ! But it is something they will look at more closely than issues like ethnic or cultural origin.

The discussion here is not picking on anyone personally, and I really don't want anyone to feel that their own relationship is on trial here. LOL we all know it's up to the Consulate to do that

But quite frankly, people who have an age gap need to know how to address this issue specifically, rather than wasting their time worrying about being denied at the Consulate because they're not both Arab.

[Marriednow 4]

Older women being hit on by younger men is a growing phenomenon. When I was single, it happened to me quite frequently, and almost exclusively be Arab men, as I am easily identifiable as Arab to other Arabs, and I live in an area heavily populated by immigrants.

From my experience, I would say that the mystique of the foreign woman, and, no offense meant, the foreign white woman, is a draw for some. You can be as exotic to them as they can be to you.

I SHOULD HAVE CLARIFED THIS. I WAS ON I THINK 4 SITES AT THE SAME TIME. AND MOST OF THOSE GUYS WERE AMERICANS, NOT FOREIGNERS. I'D SAY 75% AMERICAN, AT LEAST.

[Caladan 19]

I would guess that while it's surely something to consider, an Arab-non-Arab relationship is less likely to throw a flag simply because it's not a decent way to sort out the good relationships from the fraudulent, given the high number of non-Arab Americans applying for Arab spouses. Bad noise-to-signal ratio.

[Marriednow 4]

I've always said that a large age gap is merely one piece of the overall puzzle. A lot of folks with a substantial difference in age have been approved. And there have been cases involving couples who were of similar ages, and both of Arab heritage or both of the same faith, that were returned.

However, it must be pointed out that if you look at the cases we've seen here on VJ that were sent back in Casa, the great majority DO involve an age gap -- it's the common factor that jumps right out at you. (I am not saying it was the only factor -- I am sure that the Consulate considered all other issues as well before making a final decision.)

But from the record we've seen here, being a "cross-cultural" couple does not seem to be setting off as much scrutiny at the Consulate as do the following: a large age gap, a questionable ability to communicate in a common language, a close relationship with the SO's family members/friends before meeting/marrying/becoming engaged to the SO, or money being exchanged. Age is not the only factor, but it is apparently one to which the Casablanca Consulate pays a whole lot of attention.

I guess what I'm trying to say is -- it's not just a matter of people here in VJ focusing on it. In Morocco, the Consulate itself (whether one agrees with the reasoning or not) is looking very intently at the issue of age difference when putting the pieces of the puzzle together. It's been a common factor in returned case after returned case. Apparently, Casa has seen a lot of fraud involving this type of situation, hence their close attention to it. It doesn't mean an age factor will get you an automatic denial -- of course not ! But it is something they will look at more closely than issues like ethnic or cultural origin.

The discussion here is not picking on anyone personally, and I really don't want anyone to feel that their own relationship is on trial here. LOL we all know it's up to the Consulate to do that

But quite frankly, people who have an age gap need to know how to address this issue specifically, rather than wasting their time worrying about being denied at the Consulate because they're not both Arab.

THANKS FOR ALL THE INFO!!! I REALLY DO APPRECIATE IT. I HAVE MET ALL OF HAMID'S FAMILY AND THEY WERE WONDERFUL TO ME---TOTALLY ACCEPTING OF ME, WHICH SORT OF SURPRISED ME SINCE I AM OLDER. HIS SISTERS BECAME LIKE MY SISTERS. IN FACT, I STAYED AT HIS HOUSE WITH THEM/HIM. WE HAD THE ENGAGEMENT CEREMONY WITH THE EXCHANGE OF RINGS. I HAD MET HIS MOM AND SISTER ONLINE PREVIOUS TO MEETING THEM IN PERSON. THEY ALL WERE GREAT!!!! THEY ONLY WANT TO SEE HIM HAPPY. ALSO, HE NOW SPEAKS ENGLISH, WE BOTH DON'T WANT KIDS, HE IS ACCEPTING OF MY SORT OF LAPSED CHRISTIANITY, I ACCEPT THAT HE WANTS TO CELEBRATE RAMADAN, ETC. AND PRAY AS HE WANTS TO. I MEAN, REALLY, WE JUST WANT TO BE TOGETHER AND ENJOY OUR LIVES, IT'S NOT LIKE WE ARE A MAJOR THREAT TO ANYBODY'S SECURITY--LOL. WE TOTALLY RESPECT EACH OTHER'S BELIEFS AND LIVES.

HE HAD BEEN IN A LONG TERM RELATIONSHIP (4 YEARS) WITH A MOROCCAN WOMAN. SHE WAS ALSO OLDER. HE HAS BEEN ON HIS OWN SINCE HE WAS 16 AND HAS A GOOD LIFE AS IT IS. HE HAS NEVER PRETENDED TO BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT HE IS. ON HIS PROFILE, HE SAID HE WAS LOOKING FOR MARRIAGE AND HE TOLD ME RIGHT OFF HE WAS POOR, HAD A GOOD LIFE, BUT WAS LONELY FOR A LONG TERM RELATIONSHIP. HE HAS A JOB THERE THAT HE ENJOYS AND MAKES DECENT MONEY. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, HE WOULD JUST AS SOON THAT I COME AND LIVE THERE. BY THE WAY, IS IT POSSIBLE TO LIVE THERE LONG-TERM AND RETAIN AMERICAN RESIDENCY? DOES ANYBODY KNOW????

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Realistically, we have no real way to gage whether age differences or anything else is an issue. Simply because people here experience any particular problems is not a true measure since we are a mere microcism of what goes thru MENA consulates. This board is overwhelmingly white, with lots of age difference couples. It's not really correct to say that, over all, the consulates are rejecting age difference couples at a higher rate than non-age difference couples, nor that Arab-non-Arab couples have a certain shot, or anything else. This site is skewed, thus, we have no real data about what does and does not raise red flags more easily. So, it is best to consider EACH element that is against the MENA norm. This is also not about anyone's relationship, it is about reality.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Caladan 19]

You don't lose your American citizenship by living overseas. Is that what you were asking? Or whether he would lose his permanent residency if you moved back?

[babybunny 2]

I want to also add that I would also question a more than 20 year age difference between a USC and a beneficiary (no matter the country or the gender). This regularly does not happen in most cultures.

Casa can be intimidating. However, they are trying to do their job with little staff and even less funding. If they truly question the validity of the relationship, they don't have the time or resources to investigate or even schedule another interview. It is much easier if the case is not laid out in front of them in the petition to send it back and let USCIS deal with it.

SO, one more question. If the case gets sent back to the USCIS, does somebody here in the USA decide the case? Does that mean we get to add more evidence before they decide it? And is the decision final or can we keep appealing it? Thanks for the info!! Debbie

if your case is sent back to USICS. you have to have the case reaffirmed and sent back to Casa.

you can file an appeal. but, if you haul off an RE FILE the k-1. your only back at square one

because, you never addressed your issue in the first place.

[babybunny 2]

I've always said that a large age gap is merely one piece of the overall puzzle. A lot of folks with a substantial difference in age have been approved. And there have been cases involving couples who were of similar ages, and both of Arab heritage or both of the same faith, that were returned.

However, it must be pointed out that if you look at the cases we've seen here on VJ that were sent back in Casa, the great majority DO involve an age gap -- it's the common factor that jumps right out at you. (I am not saying it was the only factor -- I am sure that the Consulate considered all other issues as well before making a final decision.)

But from the record we've seen here, being a "cross-cultural" couple does not seem to be setting off as much scrutiny at the Consulate as do the following: a large age gap, a questionable ability to communicate in a common language, a close relationship with the SO's family members/friends before meeting/marrying/becoming engaged to the SO, or money being exchanged. Age is not the only factor, but it is apparently one to which the Casablanca Consulate pays a whole lot of attention.

I guess what I'm trying to say is -- it's not just a matter of people here in VJ focusing on it. In Morocco, the Consulate itself (whether one agrees with the reasoning or not) is looking very intently at the issue of age difference when putting the pieces of the puzzle together. It's been a common factor in returned case after returned case. Apparently, Casa has seen a lot of fraud involving this type of situation, hence their close attention to it. It doesn't mean an age factor will get you an automatic denial -- of course not ! But it is something they will look at more closely than issues like ethnic or cultural origin.

The discussion here is not picking on anyone personally, and I really don't want anyone to feel that their own relationship is on trial here. LOL we all know it's up to the Consulate to do that

But quite frankly, people who have an age gap need to know how to address this issue specifically, rather than wasting their time worrying about being denied at the Consulate because they're not both Arab.

THANKS FOR ALL THE INFO!!! I REALLY DO APPRECIATE IT. I HAVE MET ALL OF HAMID'S FAMILY AND THEY WERE WONDERFUL TO ME---TOTALLY ACCEPTING OF ME, WHICH SORT OF SURPRISED ME SINCE I AM OLDER. HIS SISTERS BECAME LIKE MY SISTERS. IN FACT, I STAYED AT HIS HOUSE WITH THEM/HIM. WE HAD THE ENGAGEMENT CEREMONY WITH THE EXCHANGE OF RINGS. I HAD MET HIS MOM AND SISTER ONLINE PREVIOUS TO MEETING THEM IN PERSON. THEY ALL WERE GREAT!!!! THEY ONLY WANT TO SEE HIM HAPPY. ALSO, HE NOW SPEAKS ENGLISH, WE BOTH DON'T WANT KIDS, HE IS ACCEPTING OF MY SORT OF LAPSED CHRISTIANITY, I ACCEPT THAT HE WANTS TO CELEBRATE RAMADAN, ETC. AND PRAY AS HE WANTS TO. I MEAN, REALLY, WE JUST WANT TO BE TOGETHER AND ENJOY OUR LIVES, IT'S NOT LIKE WE ARE A MAJOR THREAT TO ANYBODY'S SECURITY--LOL. WE TOTALLY RESPECT EACH OTHER'S BELIEFS AND LIVES.

HE HAD BEEN IN A LONG TERM RELATIONSHIP (4 YEARS) WITH A MOROCCAN WOMAN. SHE WAS ALSO OLDER. HE HAS BEEN ON HIS OWN SINCE HE WAS 16 AND HAS A GOOD LIFE AS IT IS. HE HAS NEVER PRETENDED TO BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT HE IS. ON HIS PROFILE, HE SAID HE WAS LOOKING FOR MARRIAGE AND HE TOLD ME RIGHT OFF HE WAS POOR, HAD A GOOD LIFE, BUT WAS LONELY FOR A LONG TERM RELATIONSHIP. HE HAS A JOB THERE THAT HE ENJOYS AND MAKES DECENT MONEY. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, HE WOULD JUST AS SOON THAT I COME AND LIVE THERE. BY THE WAY, IS IT POSSIBLE TO LIVE THERE LONG-TERM AND RETAIN AMERICAN RESIDENCY? DOES ANYBODY KNOW????

here is a link about all the posssible REDFLAGS your are stating here:

http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0323-ellis.shtm