No innocent people in Gaza

[Boiler 46,016]

55 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

Fellow posters. Fellow is generally used to describe men. Val is a women. You used the wrong gender identifier. 

 

Have we clarified how she or he or something else if currently self identifying?

[bcking 3,157]

15 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Have we clarified how she or he or something else if currently self identifying?

Do we give people the choice or do we choose for them?

[Boiler 46,016]

56 minutes ago, bcking said:

Do we give people the choice or do we choose for them?

Tell you what, you choose for Val and let us know how it goes.

[OriZ 3,157]

16 hours ago, Póg mo said:

It must be hard work trying to justify Israeli attrocities in Gaza. It is amazing what millions of dollars can do though. 

Must be looking in two different places, I'm not seeing any attrocities.

 

10 hours ago, bcking said:

While the protests certainly aren't peaceful I'm not seeing any reports of loss of life from the protesters.

 

Damage to property? Sure, but does that warrant the deaths of now 60 people (and probably still climbing)?

 

It's like if you intentionally stepped on my toe and in response I shot you in the head. People may omit the toe stepping part of the story, but even if they found out it probably wouldn't change their opinion of the response. 

lol I'm sorry but to be honest I think that's a funny way of looking at it and quite honestly after hearing for decades how Israel is bad because "more people die on the other side" I'm pretty much over that ludicrous approach. I guess Israel should be expected to just sacrifice people to make other people happy, have them just lay down on the ground and let them do whatever they want to them lol, it's just silly. One side is well trained and defending itself and that's the only reason why there aren't more casualties(not for lack of trying).

 

This is alot more than a protest and it's alot more than damage to property, it is a violent mob used as guise for terror activities, including live fire(yes soldiers are being shot towards from out of the crowd), bombs, IED's, molotov cocktails, you name it. Here are but two links just from the last 24 hours -  https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5261606,00.html , https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5261458,00.html . You don't compare and expect symmetry it simply doesn't work that way, the right way is to examine what the other side is attempting to do and how many people are attempting to do it. When you have 40,000 people trying to violently get through the fence and 60 are killed, it's as if 4,000 people tried to violently break into your house and you managed to fend them off and killed only 6 of them, I'd say you did pretty darn well.

 

9 hours ago, bcking said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gaza-protests-uk-un-israel-live-fire-investigation-palestinians-killed-shot-dead-back-a8352501.html

 

"The minister said: “The United Kingdom has been clear in calling for, urgently, a need to establish the facts of what happened, including why such a volume of live fire was used. “We are supportive of that independent, transparent investigation. Already, our team at the United Nations are in work with others in relation to what we can do in relation to that."

 

I concur.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/15/u-s-blocks-united-nations-call-for-independent-probe-into-gaza-deaths.html

 

"The United States blocked a United Nations (UN) Security Council statement drafted Monday that called for an independent investigation into the deaths of at least 58 Palestinians along the Israeli-Gaza border...The Security Council expresses its outrage and sorrow at the killing of Palestinian civilians exercising their right to peaceful protest," a draft of the statement read, which was seen and reported by AFP. "The Security Council calls for an independent and transparent investigation into these actions to ensure accountability." The U.S. has used its veto power 43 times against UN resolutions concerning Israel."

 

I think that is wholly inappropriate and honestly I'm ashamed of my country for it.

I think it is very appropriate and honestly I am very proud of it for it, it's time someone stands for the truth, and stops trying to single out one country.  My advantage over pretty much anyone in this forum is I've served in the army and I've been given the rules of engagement dozens of times, so I can pretty much guarantee you excessive force isn't being used despite what anyone might try and portray, could there be isolated events that might need to be investigated and/or even prosecuted sure and the IDF knows how to do that just fine, but no outside intervention, interference or investigation will ever be accepted, nor should it, as that is exactly what Hamas wants and it plays directly to their hands. I am glad that the US realized this, and doesn't fall for that trap. If people don't want to die there is a simply way to solve it, stay away from the fence, they have been warned many times by Israel yet they are still doing it, it is 10000% on them.

 

8 hours ago, bcking said:

From what I can tell property was attacked. 

 

Lethal force may not have been the proper response to an attack on property. I'm not saying anything that was done was wrong, but I do think it warrants investigation. 60+ protesters dead with no (reported) loss of life (or significant injury) on the Israeli side seems a little one-sided in terms of the response.

Again, it is alot more than an attack on property. And if 10 people were attacking your family and you killed 5 of them and no one in your family died, does that mean you're wrong? it's all ridiculous sounding to me and highly hypocritical of the media but it is what it is, we're used to it. The deck has been stacked against us for years, it won't make a dent in the resolve to do what needs doing. You can't have soldiers fearing doing their job because they're afraid they'll get arrested if they say land in London, they have a right to defend themselves and their country, and not one single country lecturing Israel on this would have been half as restrained had they faced the same situation and that's a guarantee.

 

8 hours ago, bcking said:

From what I can tell I'm not sure the protesters were asking for a gun fight. The people who made it a "gun fight" were the people who open fired and killed dozens of people. Those were the Israeli's. While molotov cocktails attached to kites are definitely not okay...I'm not sure if the proper response is to kill 60 people (at least). From what I can tell no one was actually harmed by those molotov kitetails.

 

I think this is a perfect example of the "image" problem Israel has. They say they want peace but with pretty much every "dispute" that takes place they are overwhelmingly responsible for the loss of life. 

 

While Israel certainly didn't start the protests, their response makes them look like the violent ones. If that is just a perspective issue then they need to work on that. It makes them look like the bully. 

The image issue really isn't on Israel. Like I said the only other option is to lay down and die. Anyone falling for this trap is doing exactly what Hamas wants them to, but as I said, the dogs will bark but the caravan moves on, it's been so overdone that nobody really cares anymore.

 

7 hours ago, smilesammich said:

well, i'll probably get in trouble (if not banned) for saying this here but, israel is the violent bully in this case. there's no 'looks like' about it. 

Brave soul! Interestingly you're still here, lucky you posted in the place where the ones looking to shut everyone up don't reside, over here we like a difference of opinion, as wrong as it may be. 

 

...Still waiting for a leftist environmentalist to say something about all that fire and black smoke, but I'll keep listening to crickets.

[OriZ 3,157]

https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/eff-demands-israeli-ambassador-leaves-sa-as-palestinian-death-toll-climbs-to-58-20180515

 

Israel should call back anyone down there helping them with their agriculture. Buncha silly geese.

[smilesammich 10,727]

10 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Must be looking in two different places, I'm not seeing any attrocities.

 

lol I'm sorry but to be honest I think that's a funny way of looking at it and quite honestly after hearing for decades how Israel is bad because "more people die on the other side" I'm pretty much over that ludicrous approach. I guess Israel should be expected to just sacrifice people to make other people happy, have them just lay down on the ground and let them do whatever they want to them lol, it's just silly. One side is well trained and defending itself and that's the only reason why there aren't more casualties(not for lack of trying).

 

This is alot more than a protest and it's alot more than damage to property, it is a violent mob used as guise for terror activities, including live fire(yes soldiers are being shot towards from out of the crowd), bombs, IED's, molotov cocktails, you name it. Here are but two links just from the last 24 hours -  https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5261606,00.html , https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5261458,00.html . You don't compare and expect symmetry it simply doesn't work that way, the right way is to examine what the other side is attempting to do and how many people are attempting to do it. When you have 40,000 people trying to violently get through the fence and 60 are killed, it's as if 4,000 people tried to violently break into your house and you managed to fend them off and killed only 6 of them, I'd say you did pretty darn well.

 

I think it is very appropriate and honestly I am very proud of it for it, it's time someone stands for the truth, and stops trying to single out one country.  My advantage over pretty much anyone in this forum is I've served in the army and I've been given the rules of engagement dozens of times, so I can pretty much guarantee you excessive force isn't being used despite what anyone might try and portray, could there be isolated events that might need to be investigated and/or even prosecuted sure and the IDF knows how to do that just fine, but no outside intervention, interference or investigation will ever be accepted, nor should it, as that is exactly what Hamas wants and it plays directly to their hands. I am glad that the US realized this, and doesn't fall for that trap. If people don't want to die there is a simply way to solve it, stay away from the fence, they have been warned many times by Israel yet they are still doing it, it is 10000% on them.

 

Again, it is alot more than an attack on property. And if 10 people were attacking your family and you killed 5 of them and no one in your family died, does that mean you're wrong? it's all ridiculous sounding to me and highly hypocritical of the media but it is what it is, we're used to it. The deck has been stacked against us for years, it won't make a dent in the resolve to do what needs doing. You can't have soldiers fearing doing their job because they're afraid they'll get arrested if they say land in London, they have a right to defend themselves and their country, and not one single country lecturing Israel on this would have been half as restrained had they faced the same situation and that's a guarantee.

 

The image issue really isn't on Israel. Like I said the only other option is to lay down and die. Anyone falling for this trap is doing exactly what Hamas wants them to, but as I said, the dogs will bark but the caravan moves on, it's been so overdone that nobody really cares anymore.

 

Brave soul! Interestingly you're still here, lucky you posted in the place where the ones looking to shut everyone up don't reside, over here we like a difference of opinion, as wrong as it may be. 

 

...Still waiting for a leftist environmentalist to say something about all that fire and black smoke, but I'll keep listening to crickets.

you're going to be waiting a long time, my concern is with the palestinians and the loss of life.

i've been here long enough and discussed gaza enough times to know the deal. it's not that interesting, considering.

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3 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

you're going to be waiting a long time, my concern is with the palestinians and the loss of life.

i've been here long enough and discussed gaza enough times to know the deal. it's not that interesting, considering.

I would strongly suggest sticking to their side of the Border.

 

No matter what Allah may suggest.

[OriZ 3,157]

57 minutes ago, Boiler said:

I would strongly suggest sticking to their side of the Border.

 

No matter what Allah may suggest.

Seems like it should be easy enough, no?

[Boiler 46,016]

8 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Seems like it should be easy enough, no?

You would have thought.

[Dashinka 24,765]

15 hours ago, bcking said:

From what I can tell I'm not sure the protesters were asking for a gun fight. The people who made it a "gun fight" were the people who open fired and killed dozens of people. Those were the Israeli's. While molotov cocktails attached to kites are definitely not okay...I'm not sure if the proper response is to kill 60 people (at least). From what I can tell no one was actually harmed by those molotov kitetails.

 

I think this is a perfect example of the "image" problem Israel has. They say they want peace but with pretty much every "dispute" that takes place they are overwhelmingly responsible for the loss of life. 

 

While Israel certainly didn't start the protests, their response makes them look like the violent ones. If that is just a perspective issue then they need to work on that. It makes them look like the bully. 

Sure they have an image problem.  The propaganda arm of Hamas (the American Left Wing Media) helps all they can.  Interesting that they don't report on the Hamas leadership prodding the protestors into a more confrontational human shield position.

[Dashinka 24,765]

14 hours ago, smilesammich said:

well, i'll probably get in trouble (if not banned) for saying this here but, israel is the violent bully in this case. there's no 'looks like' about it. 

Sure, the Hamas leadership is all for a two state solution, completely recognize Israel's right to exist, never use their people as human shields,  simply want to live peacefully alongside Israel, and have never said anything about wiping Israel off the map?  Who is the bully here?

[bcking 3,157]

31 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Sure they have an image problem.  The propaganda arm of Hamas (the American Left Wing Media) helps all they can.  Interesting that they don't report on the Hamas leadership prodding the protestors into a more confrontational human shield position.

A "human shield" position is meaningless if no one open fires with live rounds...

 

I've asked several times and the lack of evidence pretty much confirms my point. No Israelis were even harmed on Monday.

 

Killing 60 people was uncalled for.

[OriZ 3,157]

11 minutes ago, bcking said:

A "human shield" position is meaningless if no one open fires with live rounds...

 

I've asked several times and the lack of evidence pretty much confirms my point. No Israelis were even harmed on Monday.

 

Killing 60 people was uncalled for.

More than called for and I've provided plenty of evidence not just in the last 24 hours but last several weeks. Your choice(just like it is the media's choice) whether you want to look at it or not(FYI - there was a soldier injured but that's completely and entirely irrelevant to the situation imo).

 

Lol you gotta be kidding me, a human shield position is meaningless if no one opens fire. Hmm ok. Lets just let terrorists throw grenades, pipe bombs, molotov cocktails, shoot through the protesters at soldiers, lay down ied's, etc, no need to open fire. Better yet lets just shower them with flowers instead and surely they will stop.

Edited May 16, 2018 by OriZ

[OriZ 3,157]

The Turks are also pulling their tricks in the last few days, I say it's time Israel recognized the Armenian genocide.

[bcking 3,157]

12 minutes ago, OriZ said:

More than called for and I've provided plenty of evidence not just in the last 24 hours but last several weeks. Your choice(just like it is the media's choice) whether you want to look at it or not(FYI - there was a soldier injured but that's completely and entirely irrelevant to the situation imo).

 

Lol you gotta be kidding me, a human shield position is meaningless if no one opens fire. Hmm ok. Lets just let terrorists throw grenades, pipe bombs, molotov cocktails, shoot through the protesters at soldiers, lay down ied's, etc, no need to open fire. Better yet lets just shower them with flowers instead and surely they will stop.

I saw you evidence. None of it mentions any Israelis even being injured. Thousands of Palestinians were.

 

Israeli had the right to defend themselves but their defense should he measured against the threat. 

 

Oh so now we are saying the Palestinians were shot by their own people? Do you have some Israeli news website providing evidence for that as well?