What Part of 'Illegal Immigration' is Confusing?

[athena_ny 1]

ok so here is the *sitch* for me since i keep getting referred to as pro-illegal, pro-amnesty, EWI-sympathizer whatever you want to brand it.

I DO NOT AGREE WITH ILLEGAL PRESENCE. what i DO find curious is that our government has taken a blind eye to it, for what? so yes we do have some kind of anarchy because the goverment has failed in enforcing this. More to the point they have utterly failed in holding employers accountable. the government can require SOX compliance due to enron crapheads, but cannot enforce ensuring documents are sound for legal working permits? SOX is one HELL of a cost problem for companies (i should know ) .. so why does that get enforced but the companies who employ OTHER kinds of law-breakers not get the same attention, obviously the govenment has cared very little in the past.

hate the game not the player.... there is a pretty substantial demand for illegal workers and if the gov continues to turn a blind eye then people will continue to break the law.

Oh man, I hate SOX. At my job (it involves a major company who we publish yellow pages for) they're my number one error. *cries*

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I'd like to see a speech asking Americans to make the sacrifices necessary to make kicking out undocumented workers workable. They will need to pay more for everything from restaurant food to houses to see it made by Americans/residents who got a living wage for their work. It's the right thing to do, but Americans need to see an accurate picture of the changes needed to fill the hole the immigrants will leave. It will require sacrifice on everyone's part.

Hogwash

Upwards of 75 - 85% of the workers in "those" industries are American. The vast majority of restaurants and farms, for example, does not employ illegals. The vast majority of janitors are legally employed as well. Same goes for construction. You as a consumer don't save a dime because an illegal was involved in supplying the product your consume. The employer supplying that product simply makes a larger cut than the employer hiring employees legally.

Besides, you do realize that millions of Americans work for far less than a living wage today, don't you?

[parkpapa 0]

An interesting thread! As with the "discussion" in Congress, there is possibly mucho calor, pero no hay mucho luz. A few things to consider....

As a point of clarification, I believe that the gentleman quoted at the beginning of the thread is a Representative and not a Senator. I agree with many of the points he raises, however, if the solution were (as was suggested somewhere along the way) to be found in a speech, then the issue would have disappeared years ago.

I suspect that many here at visajourney are at least partly upset about illegal immigrants because we are personally facing the frustration and red-tape involved with trying to bring our loved one(s) here by legal methods. To make matters worse, there seems to be talk of making the visa process even more difficult.

In practical terms, are we willing to cough up the real money that it would take to locate, adjudicate, process, and deport 12 million people??? From a strictly monetary standpoint, it would make more sense to give them worker status, collect taxes from them, and allow them to stay. Just throwing a number at it, if it cost a mere $1,000 per person, that would be 12 billion dollars! The 14 million unemployed "real" Americans mentioned earlier include white collar workers (higher salaries) and many who are no longer looking for work. They are not just people willing to work for minimum wage. Finding all 14 million of them would be almost as difficult - and expensive - as locating the illegals.

We can blame big business (though small business owners probably hire more illegals), or the government, or the man in the moon for that matter. But assigning blame doesn't solve the problem. The problem is pretty simple - though the solution isn't. Most of these people are here, willing to work at or below minimum wage, because it is more money than they can make at home. If asked, I would guess that the vast majority of these folks would rather be in their home country with a similar income as what they can gain here in even a year's time. So, the solution is to make the prospect of remaining in their home country more attractive than coming here.

Just my simple thoughts on a complicated issue.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

In practical terms, are we willing to cough up the real money that it would take to locate, adjudicate, process, and deport 12 million people??? From a strictly monetary standpoint, it would make more sense to give them worker status, collect taxes from them, and allow them to stay. Just throwing a number at it, if it cost a mere $1,000 per person, that would be 12 billion dollars! The 14 million unemployed "real" Americans mentioned earlier include white collar workers (higher salaries) and many who are no longer looking for work. They are not just people willing to work for minimum wage. Finding all 14 million of them would be almost as difficult - and expensive - as locating the illegals.

No deportation. Just fine those enablers out of business and send them up the river. The illegals won't need deportation but rather transportation. And they can pay for it. The nonsense that legal workers aren't available is an argument put forth quite often by the profiteers of the status quo. I just ain't buying it. The market takes care of such things. And if it takes additional visa categories to supply workers to an industry in need, let's have it. I have no problem with more immigrants. But do not reward those that feel they're above the law. Show them once and for all that they're not.

[homesick_american 1]

I'd like to see a speech asking Americans to make the sacrifices necessary to make kicking out undocumented workers workable. They will need to pay more for everything from restaurant food to houses to see it made by Americans/residents who got a living wage for their work. It's the right thing to do, but Americans need to see an accurate picture of the changes needed to fill the hole the immigrants will leave. It will require sacrifice on everyone's part.

Then I'd like that speech to address how we will be reworking previous agreements with Latin America and other 3rd world areas to demolish the uneven playing fields we have created for them. And how the American people will need to sacrifice for this, too.

IMO, those changes would cause the US to ultimately collapse as a world power. Hmmmm....

Actually, studies have shown that the prices of goods and services wouldn't increase very much, and just think of the money we'd save not having to school their children or pay for their healthcare. I say kick 'em out; I'll pay a little more for a head of lettuce.

[homesick_american 1]

If we as Americans agree that ANYTHING is worth the lowest prices possible, then we will continue to use illegal immigrants to provide the lowest cost labor. It's up to the American people to demand that they pay higher prices so poor Americans can be employed gainfully at a living wage.

I as an American do not agree that anything is worth the lowest price possible. If I believed that, I'd have shopped at Wal-Mart when I lived in the US.

I as an American am DEMANDING that these people be sent home and I am WILLING to pay a little more for goods and services, but nobody's actually listening to anything *I* say.

Besides, would you rather pay 50 cents for a head of lettuce and have migrant workers making below minimum wage living 20 to a 1 bedroom apartment, or worse yet sleeping outside...or would you pay 75 and let the pickers, whoever they are, have a better standard of living?

Y'know, I don't think the illegal fans are actually more moral than I am. One of the major reasons I'm against illegal immigration is because some of the illegals themselves are mercilessly exploited by American companies wanting to fatten their profit margins, and NONE OF US GET A GODDAMN SAY IN IT.

I'm sick of not being heard.

[pedroh 21]

LOL

aside from illegal immigration.. working 2 years in retail, I can say Americans wouldn't pay more for products., LOLOLOL.. that's a joke.. people get p!ssed off cuz of increases of 10 cents, I can't imagine an increase of 50 cents to a dollar.. har har har..

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

LOL

aside from illegal immigration.. working 2 years in retail, I can say Americans wouldn't pay more for products., LOLOLOL.. that's a joke.. people get p!ssed off cuz of increases of 10 cents, I can't imagine an increase of 50 cents to a dollar.. har har har..

Again, pedroh, you're talkin from your stomach rather than based on actual facts. Milk, for example has almost doubled in price over the past decade. I remember buying a gallon for $2.00 or less whereas now, one shells out upwards of $3.50. Same goes for many other products. Take the development of gas prices: +300% over the past 6 years or so. Yes, I clearly remember paying pennies (as in, under a buck) for the gallon back pre-Bush and now we're hovering around that $2.80 - $3.00 mark. Americans pay for it, don't they?

Edited May 4, 2007 by ET-US2004

[pedroh 21]

LOL

aside from illegal immigration.. working 2 years in retail, I can say Americans wouldn't pay more for products., LOLOLOL.. that's a joke.. people get p!ssed off cuz of increases of 10 cents, I can't imagine an increase of 50 cents to a dollar.. har har har..

Again, pedroh, you're talkin from your stomach rather than based on actual facts. Milk, for example has almost doubled in price over the past decade. I remember buying a gallon for $2.00 or less whereas now, one shells out upwards of $3.50. Same goes for many other products. Take the development of gas prices: +300% over the past 6 years or so. Yes, I clearly remember paying pennies (as in, under a buck) for the gallon back pre-Bush and now we're hovering around that $2.80 - $3.00 mark. Americans pay for it, don't they?

you're talking about products with an inelastic demand, of course people will pay money for those kind of goods..

[homesick_american 1]

LOL

aside from illegal immigration.. working 2 years in retail, I can say Americans wouldn't pay more for products., LOLOLOL.. that's a joke.. people get p!ssed off cuz of increases of 10 cents, I can't imagine an increase of 50 cents to a dollar.. har har har..

As a consumer, I can say I WOULD pay more. This isn't about what you can imagine; this is about what would actually happen.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

LOL

aside from illegal immigration.. working 2 years in retail, I can say Americans wouldn't pay more for products., LOLOLOL.. that's a joke.. people get p!ssed off cuz of increases of 10 cents, I can't imagine an increase of 50 cents to a dollar.. har har har..

Again, pedroh, you're talkin from your stomach rather than based on actual facts. Milk, for example has almost doubled in price over the past decade. I remember buying a gallon for $2.00 or less whereas now, one shells out upwards of $3.50. Same goes for many other products. Take the development of gas prices: +300% over the past 6 years or so. Yes, I clearly remember paying pennies (as in, under a buck) for the gallon back pre-Bush and now we're hovering around that $2.80 - $3.00 mark. Americans pay for it, don't they?

you're talking about products with an inelastic demand, of course people will pay money for those kind of goods..

This goes for all kinds of products. People spend more on cars, TV's, computer games, etc even if there are less pricey options available. Many folks, for example, make a run for the cell phone that's considered cool rather than take the one that comes free with the contract. Since you've work at the Shack, you should know these things. On top of that, Americans spend millions on just the fcuking ringtones for those phones even they come equipped with several ringtones from the factory.

Edited May 4, 2007 by ET-US2004

[Ban Hammer 13,481]

LOL

aside from illegal immigration.. working 2 years in retail, I can say Americans wouldn't pay more for products., LOLOLOL.. that's a joke.. people get p!ssed off cuz of increases of 10 cents, I can't imagine an increase of 50 cents to a dollar.. har har har..

happened with gasoline...and they are still buying it

[GaryC 7]

LOL

aside from illegal immigration.. working 2 years in retail, I can say Americans wouldn't pay more for products., LOLOLOL.. that's a joke.. people get p!ssed off cuz of increases of 10 cents, I can't imagine an increase of 50 cents to a dollar.. har har har..

Don't bet on it Pedro. I would be willing to pay more for anything that goes up to get rid of the illegals workers in the US. True some may b!tch about it but they would still pay. It would be worth it to secure our country. I don't believe that the price would rise all that much anyway. Using cheap labor is like the slavery days. If it was available then the cheap labor was used. Once it was no longer available the farmers found other ways (like mechanization) to cut costs. This is no different.

[Alex+R 0]

If we as Americans agree that ANYTHING is worth the lowest prices possible, then we will continue to use illegal immigrants to provide the lowest cost labor. It's up to the American people to demand that they pay higher prices so poor Americans can be employed gainfully at a living wage.

I as an American do not agree that anything is worth the lowest price possible. If I believed that, I'd have shopped at Wal-Mart when I lived in the US.

I as an American am DEMANDING that these people be sent home and I am WILLING to pay a little more for goods and services, but nobody's actually listening to anything *I* say.

Besides, would you rather pay 50 cents for a head of lettuce and have migrant workers making below minimum wage living 20 to a 1 bedroom apartment, or worse yet sleeping outside...or would you pay 75 and let the pickers, whoever they are, have a better standard of living?

Y'know, I don't think the illegal fans are actually more moral than I am. One of the major reasons I'm against illegal immigration is because some of the illegals themselves are mercilessly exploited by American companies wanting to fatten their profit margins, and NONE OF US GET A GODDAMN SAY IN IT.

I'm sick of not being heard.

Obviously I want them to have a living wage. IMO, any worker in America deserves a living wage. My post was not adversarial in any way, and "illegal fan" is a ridiculous label that fits pretty much nobody. I didn't appreciate the eye roll, which was completely unwarranted.

[homesick_american 1]

Obviously I want them to have a living wage. IMO, any worker in America deserves a living wage. My post was not adversarial in any way, and "illegal fan" is a ridiculous label that fits pretty much nobody. I didn't appreciate the eye roll, which was completely unwarranted.

And I didn't appreciate something else you said today. Oh well.