Getting Sued using I864 part 2

[seantruce 5]

I sponsored someone who used me for a green card and claims that I will have to support her for the rest of her life as long as she does not work. Can this be true? It seems that she planned this all along. The week after she stepped foot on American soil, she started threatening me with the Affidavit of Support if I did not give her money. This is my worst nightmare. How could our government allow this. This makes Americans potential victims to anyone looking to get a green card and anyone who does not want to work. Is this really true? As long as she does not work, or get citizenship, I can end up supporting her and her daughter for over 50 years? And If I do not make enough money, she will get all of my money and I will have none and I will not be able to file for bankruptcy for this debt?

 

One question I have that could be helpful is if her conditional green card expired, am I off the hook?

 

I think there is a lot of false information out there planted by people trying to pull the wool over victims eyes as they get them to sign this thing. When I was signing it, my ex was telling me that nobody ever got money from this, that it was something not enforced. Then she gets here and it is all she ever talks about.

 

Others out there in my position, let's organize. Lets talk to our congress and get this thing revoked. There is no reason why they should be incentivized not to work and be able to hold this over our heads.

 

Does anyone know an attorney out there that would defend me with experience in this? All I can find are attorneys that would sue Americans for immigrants. Some specialize in this.

Edited March 19, 2018 by seantruce

[little immigrant 801]

38 minutes ago, seantruce said:

One question I have that could be helpful is if her conditional green card expired, am I off the hook?

No. She can remove conditions with or without spouse. The latter would be with a divorce waiver if it need to be. 

[geowrian 22,337]

Yes, potentially she can sue under the I-864 if she does not meet the minimum financial level by her own means. If it went to court and she won, the court may or may not require that she seek employment to attempt to negate or minimize the amount of support required. But the court does not have to order this, and she does not have to seek citizenship or anything of the sort.

This is not a loophole or anything like that...this is exactly what you signed. It includes clear wording directly next to the part where you sign stating the responsibilities of being a sponsor. It does not only affect Americans...it also affects all LPRs who sign it as it is a civil contract.

 

That said, the fact that she started threatening to sue under the I-864 right away is a red flag that she intended to do so right away, likely via fraud. I'm assuming this is for a former spouse based on your wording below.

 

42 minutes ago, seantruce said:

And If I do not make enough money, she will get all of my money and I will have none and I will not be able to file for bankruptcy for this debt?

Not likely. If she were to sue and win said suit (not easy, but possible), then the financial arrangements to comply with the contract would be determined by the court. You can't squeeze blood from a stone...they very likely wouldn't order support that puts you in a position where you cannot afford to care for your own basic necessities.

 

41 minutes ago, seantruce said:

One question I have that could be helpful is if her conditional green card expired, am I off the hook?

Only if she has her LPR status revoked and she leaves the US. A green card is only proof of her LPR status. She could have filed for ROC (or potentially file it late), with or without you.

 

15 minutes ago, seantruce said:

I think there is a lot of false information out there planted by people trying to pull the wool over victims eyes as they get them to sign this thing. When I was signing it, my ex was telling me that nobody ever got money from this, that it was something not enforced. Then she gets here and it is all she ever talks about.

The most common understanding of the I-864 is that the sponsor would be responsible for reimbursing the government for certain means-tested benefits if the beneficiary used them. This is very rarely enforced really...but that could change quickly. But the requirement to ensure that the beneficiary maintains at least a 125% income level is pretty clearly stated:

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/form/i-864.pdf

"What Does Signing Form I-864 Require Me To Do?

If an intending immigrant becomes a lawful permanent resident in the United States based on a Form I-864 that you have signed, then, until your obligations under Form I-864 terminate, you must:

 

A. Provide the intending immigrant any support necessary to maintain him or her at an income that is at least 125 percent of the Federal Poverty Guidelines for his or her household size (100 percent if you are the petitioning sponsor and are on active duty in the U.S. Armed Forces or U.S. Coast Guard, and the person is your husband, wife, or unmarried child under 21 years of age"

 

I'm sorry if you understood it any differently or she convinced you otherwise, but it reads pretty clearly. Never sign a contract you do not fully understand and intend to keep.

 

22 minutes ago, seantruce said:

Others out there in my position, let's organize. Lets talk to our congress and get this thing revoked. There is no reason why they should be incentivized not to work and be able to hold this over our heads.

With regards to your current situation, it's too late. This already signed and executed contract is a civil matter, not an immigration one. They can't just make private contracts null and void without potentially huge repercussions...and I doubt there is much political support behind lowering the ability to ensure that the US government / taxpayers aren't paying for an immigrant to come to the US.

[Unlockable 7,314]

5 hours ago, seantruce said:

Can this be true? It seems that she planned this all along. The week after she stepped foot on American soil, she started threatening me with the Affidavit of Support if I did not give her money. This is my worst nightmare. How could our government allow this. This makes Americans potential victims to anyone looking to get a green card and anyone who does not want to work. Is this really true?

I know you may be a little emotional right now but the statement you posted needs to be addressed. The US government is not allowing this. In fact, you need to remember what you went through in order for her to get the visa. First, you had to meet her in person, which is a hard requirement. This is to prevent scams. Then, she had to provide documents that shows she is a proper citizen, has no criminal record, and even have a medical and drug test. Basically, this is to show and prove that she is not a threat to US society. Then, she had to have an in person interview to prove she is the person she says she is and you and her had to provide tons of evidence that the relationship was real and legitimate.

 

If you think about it, it was you that helped prove that she was not scamming you by vouching for her with all the evidence and the promise to take care of her. The people working these cases can only do so much to protect you. And when you have a US citizen providing so much evidence that everything is legit, there is so much more they can do. 

 

Now to answer you questions, yes she can sue you for support based on the affidavit of support. If you read it carefully, it clearly states it in it before you sign. Now, we have not seen many cases of it happening. But it is definitely doable. And it is not for life. If she becomes a US citizen, or if she remarries then you are off the hook.

 

If her green card expires, she can still renew it with a divorce waiver and get a 10 year green card. I know this is not what you want to hear  (it is the truth) but she no longer needs you for immigration purposes. Once the affidavit of support and the green card is in her hands you are no longer needed.

 

Quote

Others out there in my position, let's organize. Lets talk to our congress and get this thing revoked. There is no reason why they should be incentivized not to work and be able to hold this over our heads.

You are going about this the wrong way. Preventative measures ARE put into place to prevent scams. Nobody forced you to sign the Affidavit. The reason so many steps in the process takes place is because scams were so rampant in the past. 

 

5 hours ago, seantruce said:

Does anyone know an attorney out there that would defend me with experience in this? All I can find are attorneys that would sue Americans for immigrants. Some specialize in this.

You can try with an attorney but honestly it will be a long shot. All she can say is when she arrived, when living with you, she realized that you were not the person she wanted to stay with. The "change of heart" card gets played all the time. The problem is that it is almost impossible to disprove it. Plus in order to prove she scammed you, you basically have to have a ton of irrefutable evidence that she scammed you. Then you may try for an annulment which will invalidate the marriage and subsequently make the visa and green card invalid. But again, it is tough to get after the fact.

 

 

[seantruce 5]

On 3/18/2018 at 10:31 PM, geowrian said:

Yes, potentially she can sue under the I-864 if she does not meet the minimum financial level by her own means. If it went to court and she won, the court may or may not require that she seek employment to attempt to negate or minimize the amount of support required. But the court does not have to order this, and she does not have to seek citizenship or anything of the sort.

This is not a loophole or anything like that...this is exactly what you signed. It includes clear wording directly next to the part where you sign stating the responsibilities of being a sponsor. It does not only affect Americans...it also affects all LPRs who sign it as it is a civil contract.

 

That said, the fact that she started threatening to sue under the I-864 right away is a red flag that she intended to do so right away, likely via fraud. I'm assuming this is for a former spouse based on your wording below.

 

Not likely. If she were to sue and win said suit (not easy, but possible), then the financial arrangements to comply with the contract would be determined by the court. You can't squeeze blood from a stone...they very likely wouldn't order support that puts you in a position where you cannot afford to care for your own basic necessities.

 

Only if she has her LPR status revoked and she leaves the US. A green card is only proof of her LPR status. She could have filed for ROC (or potentially file it late), with or without you.

 

The most common understanding of the I-864 is that the sponsor would be responsible for reimbursing the government for certain means-tested benefits if the beneficiary used them. This is very rarely enforced really...but that could change quickly. But the requirement to ensure that the beneficiary maintains at least a 125% income level is pretty clearly stated:

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/form/i-864.pdf

"What Does Signing Form I-864 Require Me To Do?

If an intending immigrant becomes a lawful permanent resident in the United States based on a Form I-864 that you have signed, then, until your obligations under Form I-864 terminate, you must:

 

A. Provide the intending immigrant any support necessary to maintain him or her at an income that is at least 125 percent of the Federal Poverty Guidelines for his or her household size (100 percent if you are the petitioning sponsor and are on active duty in the U.S. Armed Forces or U.S. Coast Guard, and the person is your husband, wife, or unmarried child under 21 years of age"

 

I'm sorry if you understood it any differently or she convinced you otherwise, but it reads pretty clearly. Never sign a contract you do not fully understand and intend to keep.

 

With regards to your current situation, it's too late. This already signed and executed contract is a civil matter, not an immigration one. They can't just make private contracts null and void without potentially huge repercussions...and I doubt there is much political support behind lowering the ability to ensure that the US government / taxpayers aren't paying for an immigrant to come to the US.

It is not right that the US government will do this to our citizens and require this kind of contract. It makes Americans victims. I think that the way we could organize and fix this after the fact is to require anyone who is trying to cash in on this affidavit of support to lose their status. We need a law that states "anyone using the affidavit of support shall lose their green card immediately!" I am not against immigrants. If someone uses someone they should not get away with it. My friend from the EU said if he brings his wife to Switzerland, she can stay there as long as they stay married. This would end the problem for we adopted the Swiss law.

 

If someone thinks they are in love and saving a poor person from a life of poverty, they will always sign this. Nobody gets married thinking that it is temporary. If I divorce an American, they can not make me support them forever for a short marriage.

 

Thank you for your insight.

[payxibka 10,045]

The contract is between the USC and the USG.  The beneficiary is not a party to it.  I don't think they have a basis for a lawsuit

[geowrian 22,337]

5 minutes ago, payxibka said:

The contract is between the USC and the USG.  The beneficiary is not a party to it.  I don't think they have a basis for a lawsuit

This understanding of it has been successfully challenged in court, where a beneficiary has been able to sue the petitioner for enforcement in some situations. See Stump vs Stump. The petition's beneficiary is an indirect beneficiary of the contract. There's a thread covering this topic here:

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by geowrian

[seantruce 5]

On 3/18/2018 at 10:20 PM, little immigrant said:

No. She can remove conditions with or without spouse. The latter would be with a divorce waiver if it need to be. 

Our country is messed up. I doubt any other country would do this to their own people. Thank you for your insight.

[payxibka 10,045]

1 minute ago, geowrian said:

This understanding of it has been successfully challenged in court, where a beneficiary has been able to sue the petitioner for enforcement in some situations. See Stump vs Stump. The beneficiary is an indirect beneficiary of the contract. There's a thread covering this topic here:

 

But Stumpf v Stumpf was a long time ago and I don't think it opened pandora's box like they thought it would.  Besides her award was miniscule...

[seantruce 5]

On 3/18/2018 at 10:31 PM, geowrian said:

Yes, potentially she can sue under the I-864 if she does not meet the minimum financial level by her own means. If it went to court and she won, the court may or may not require that she seek employment to attempt to negate or minimize the amount of support required. But the court does not have to order this, and she does not have to seek citizenship or anything of the sort.

This is not a loophole or anything like that...this is exactly what you signed. It includes clear wording directly next to the part where you sign stating the responsibilities of being a sponsor. It does not only affect Americans...it also affects all LPRs who sign it as it is a civil contract.

 

That said, the fact that she started threatening to sue under the I-864 right away is a red flag that she intended to do so right away, likely via fraud. I'm assuming this is for a former spouse based on your wording below.

 

Not likely. If she were to sue and win said suit (not easy, but possible), then the financial arrangements to comply with the contract would be determined by the court. You can't squeeze blood from a stone...they very likely wouldn't order support that puts you in a position where you cannot afford to care for your own basic necessities.

 

Only if she has her LPR status revoked and she leaves the US. A green card is only proof of her LPR status. She could have filed for ROC (or potentially file it late), with or without you.

 

The most common understanding of the I-864 is that the sponsor would be responsible for reimbursing the government for certain means-tested benefits if the beneficiary used them. This is very rarely enforced really...but that could change quickly. But the requirement to ensure that the beneficiary maintains at least a 125% income level is pretty clearly stated:

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/form/i-864.pdf

"What Does Signing Form I-864 Require Me To Do?

If an intending immigrant becomes a lawful permanent resident in the United States based on a Form I-864 that you have signed, then, until your obligations under Form I-864 terminate, you must:

 

A. Provide the intending immigrant any support necessary to maintain him or her at an income that is at least 125 percent of the Federal Poverty Guidelines for his or her household size (100 percent if you are the petitioning sponsor and are on active duty in the U.S. Armed Forces or U.S. Coast Guard, and the person is your husband, wife, or unmarried child under 21 years of age"

 

I'm sorry if you understood it any differently or she convinced you otherwise, but it reads pretty clearly. Never sign a contract you do not fully understand and intend to keep.

 

With regards to your current situation, it's too late. This already signed and executed contract is a civil matter, not an immigration one. They can't just make private contracts null and void without potentially huge repercussions...and I doubt there is much political support behind lowering the ability to ensure that the US government / taxpayers aren't paying for an immigrant to come to the US.

They might as well put a big sign on America that says "Live the American dream and never work. Get supported forever! Marry an American for a short time and make him support you forever" It is the law. I bet they have a book on this for women looking for nice guys to use.

[Unidentified 2,930]

On 3/19/2018 at 12:41 AM, seantruce said:

I sponsored someone who used me for a green card and claims that I will have to support her for the rest of her life as long as she does not work. Can this be true? It seems that she planned this all along. The week after she stepped foot on American soil, she started threatening me with the Affidavit of Support if I did not give her money. This is my worst nightmare. How could our government allow this. This makes Americans potential victims to anyone looking to get a green card and anyone who does not want to work. Is this really true? As long as she does not work, or get citizenship, I can end up supporting her and her daughter for over 50 years? And If I do not make enough money, she will get all of my money and I will have none and I will not be able to file for bankruptcy for this debt?

 

One question I have that could be helpful is if her conditional green card expired, am I off the hook?

 

I think there is a lot of false information out there planted by people trying to pull the wool over victims eyes as they get them to sign this thing. When I was signing it, my ex was telling me that nobody ever got money from this, that it was something not enforced. Then she gets here and it is all she ever talks about.

 

Others out there in my position, let's organize. Lets talk to our congress and get this thing revoked. There is no reason why they should be incentivized not to work and be able to hold this over our heads.

 

Does anyone know an attorney out there that would defend me with experience in this? All I can find are attorneys that would sue Americans for immigrants. Some specialize in this.

So instead of reading what you signed you just took her word for it and signed the document? Next time someone asks you to sign a contract etc, read the whole document...

[geowrian 22,337]

8 minutes ago, payxibka said:

But Stumpf v Stumpf was a long time ago and I don't think it opened pandora's box like they thought it would.  Besides her award was miniscule...

Not that long ago (2005). The I-864 has only become more direct about the petitioner's obligation to support the beneficiary at the 125% level since then.

The amount of the award in that specific case wasn't that much, but it set precedent for other cases. The obligation was agreed to be 125% of the poverty level, although arguments on what qualified as income were made to mitigate using the full 125% level. There's also different understandings in different circuit courts on if the beneficiary is required to seek employment (or other sources of income) to mitigate or avoid enforcement of the contract.

Edited March 25, 2018 by geowrian

[seantruce 5]

On 3/19/2018 at 3:09 AM, NuestraUnion said:

I know you may be a little emotional right now but the statement you posted needs to be addressed. The US government is not allowing this. In fact, you need to remember what you went through in order for her to get the visa. First, you had to meet her in person, which is a hard requirement. This is to prevent scams. Then, she had to provide documents that shows she is a proper citizen, has no criminal record, and even have a medical and drug test. Basically, this is to show and prove that she is not a threat to US society. Then, she had to have an in person interview to prove she is the person she says she is and you and her had to provide tons of evidence that the relationship was real and legitimate.

 

If you think about it, it was you that helped prove that she was not scamming you by vouching for her with all the evidence and the promise to take care of her. The people working these cases can only do so much to protect you. And when you have a US citizen providing so much evidence that everything is legit, there is so much more they can do. 

 

Now to answer you questions, yes she can sue you for support based on the affidavit of support. If you read it carefully, it clearly states it in it before you sign. Now, we have not seen many cases of it happening. But it is definitely doable. And it is not for life. If she becomes a US citizen, or if she remarries then you are off the hook.

 

If her green card expires, she can still renew it with a divorce waiver and get a 10 year green card. I know this is not what you want to hear  (it is the truth) but she no longer needs you for immigration purposes. Once the affidavit of support and the green card is in her hands you are no longer needed.

 

You are going about this the wrong way. Preventative measures ARE put into place to prevent scams. Nobody forced you to sign the Affidavit. The reason so many steps in the process takes place is because scams were so rampant in the past. 

 

You can try with an attorney but honestly it will be a long shot. All she can say is when she arrived, when living with you, she realized that you were not the person she wanted to stay with. The "change of heart" card gets played all the time. The problem is that it is almost impossible to disprove it. Plus in order to prove she scammed you, you basically have to have a ton of irrefutable evidence that she scammed you. Then you may try for an annulment which will invalidate the marriage and subsequently make the visa and green card invalid. But again, it is tough to get after the fact.

 

 

Of course this makes me emotional. I was scammed. There is no doubt about it. Of course I helped her get here and as soon as she set foot on American soil, she knew she had me and did not ever have to work again. She told me that I am going to have to support her and her daughter forever. Not 10 years, that would require her getting a job. She expects me support her forever. Yes I signed that paper, because I was scammed. I thought I was in love. I was duped. 125% of poverty level for 2 people for 50 years is over a million dollars. I will have to leave this country now, because according to that thing I signed, she will get the first $30k of ever years pay. If I make $30k, I get nothing according to that contract. God bless America! I am going to talk to every politician I can find and figure something out. I am sure that there are thousands more out there in my position. Now with the president deporting everyone, perhaps he can go after those using the system against people like me. Can you understand how this ruins my life?

[seantruce 5]

23 minutes ago, payxibka said:

The contract is between the USC and the USG.  The beneficiary is not a party to it.  I don't think they have a basis for a lawsuit

I hope you are right. That is what I thought at first when I signed it, but apparently there is a lot of misinformation out there, probably disseminated by foreigners trying to dupe someone like me into signing the form.

[seantruce 5]

13 minutes ago, Unidentified said:

So instead of reading what you signed you just took her word for it and signed the document? Next time someone asks you to sign a contract etc, read the whole document...

Did you read the Microsoft document or the apple document or the Samsung document or did you scroll through it? You are not helping things here. Once I got hurt and someone just tells me watch out next time. That is not very compassionate.