Ex-Russian spy poisoning looks to be 'state-sponsored,' UK lawmaker says

[bcking 3,157]

4 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Never said what was done was right just as I don't feel illegal aliens that murder or injure citizens is right.  I only asked the question as to what is the UK going to do from an action standpoint.  I suggested economic sanctions, maybe freezing Russian bank accounts, etc.  However, if you think this is an act of war then I suppose there is only one action for Ms. May.

How many people does a foreign government have to severly injure/kill on a country's soil for you to think a military response is appropriate?

 

I'm not trying to be flippant. For me I don't think one is enough. Obviously some people may think differently.

 

My problem is if one isn't enough, I don't really have a number in mind. I'm curious as to your opinion? When should it go from economic sanctions to something more direct? 5 people? 10 people?

[yuna628 9,676]

4 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Never said what was done was right just as I don't feel illegal aliens that murder or injure citizens is right.  I only asked the question as to what is the UK going to do from an action standpoint.  I suggested economic sanctions, maybe freezing Russian bank accounts, etc.  However, if you think this is an act of war then I suppose there is only one action for Ms. May.

TBH, I think it's rather hypocritical for her to do anything now, considering the amount of dead bodies already murdered on their watch. If it were me, sanctions long ago, followed by the shuttering of the embassy, removing visas, and no NATO allies attend the world cup. It was frankly pretty pathetic that NATO allies attended the Sochi Olympics.

 

It is without a doubt an act of war and the problem is they continue to feel they can get away with it.

[smilesammich 10,727]

1 hour ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

I am struggling to explain Trump failure to act. 

oh it's easy, obama weak = trump strong. that's all.

[bcking 3,157]

1 minute ago, yuna628 said:

TBH, I think it's rather hypocritical for her to do anything now, considering the amount of dead bodies already murdered on their watch. If it were me, sanctions long ago, followed by the shuttering of the embassy, removing visas, and no NATO allies attend the world cup. It was frankly pretty pathetic that NATO allies attended the Sochi Olympics.

 

It is without a doubt an act of war and the problem is they continue to feel they can get away with it.

It may be hypocritical but from the sounds of things it seems like you would support more action? So at some point someone has to change the current course, even if it means being a hypocrite (though I don't think that label would be 100% fair in this case).

 

Politicians in general get too hung up on "changing their minds" or "changing position", probably in part because the media/public seem to always see it as a bad thing. As long as the change is in the right direction, I always support someone changing their mind on an issue. No one should just keep doing what they are doing because they don't want to seem like a "hypocrite" or "inconsistent". 

[yuna628 9,676]

4 minutes ago, bcking said:

How many people does a foreign government have to severly injure/kill on a country's soil for you to think a military response is appropriate?

 

I'm not trying to be flippant. For me I don't think one is enough. Obviously some people may think differently.

 

My problem is if one isn't enough, I don't really have a number in mind. I'm curious as to your opinion? When should it go from economic sanctions to something more direct? 5 people? 10 people?

Well in 2010 they murdered the Polish president and many others. That still apparently wasn't enough. Nor was invading other countries... or blowing up a plane with a missile. Or poisoning people, murdering journalists or political opponents inside and outside the country.

 

Russia will not stop doing the things they are doing, because they feel they can get away with it. How would you intend to make them stop?

 

 

[Dashinka 24,499]

11 minutes ago, bcking said:

How many people does a foreign government have to severly injure/kill on a country's soil for you to think a military response is appropriate?

 

I'm not trying to be flippant. For me I don't think one is enough. Obviously some people may think differently.

 

My problem is if one isn't enough, I don't really have a number in mind. I'm curious as to your opinion? When should it go from economic sanctions to something more direct? 5 people? 10 people?

Apparently it takes quite a few.  Just look at the actions of foreign governments in response to KJU killing his brother in Malaysia with a similar nerve agent.  My point here is that the OP article just showed condemnation which I agree with.  Relative to other actions by the UK, time will tell.

[Dashinka 24,499]

11 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Well in 2010 they murdered the Polish president and many others. That still apparently wasn't enough. Nor was invading other countries... or blowing up a plane with a missile. Or poisoning people, murdering journalists or political opponents inside and outside the country.

 

Russia will not stop doing the things they are doing, because they feel they can get away with it. How would you intend to make them stop?

 

 

They murdered a head of state?  Even the official Polish report to that crash blamed the pilots, were they Russian?

[bcking 3,157]

23 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Well in 2010 they murdered the Polish president and many others. That still apparently wasn't enough. Nor was invading other countries... or blowing up a plane with a missile. Or poisoning people, murdering journalists or political opponents inside and outside the country.

 

Russia will not stop doing the things they are doing, because they feel they can get away with it. How would you intend to make them stop?

 

 

I can only speak for myself as I (obviously) don't represent our country, and I would never want to.

 

I would personally advocate for showing them that they can't get away with it, and being serious about it. Even if that means ultimately a military response. I would hope and expect for other countries that see themselves as free, independent, democratic nations would coordinate their efforts together. 

 

But as I said, that is just my personal opinion and I don't pretend to speak for our nation. I tend to have a fairly "no nonsense" view of things, and believe strongly in order and in firm punishments for clear transgressions. An aggressor nation murdering/poisoning people on another a victim nation's soil is a threat to the victim nation's sovereignty. 

[yuna628 9,676]

1 hour ago, Bill & Katya said:

They murdered a head of state?  Even the official Polish report to that crash blamed the pilots, were they Russian?

Dig deeper than the propaganda line.

44 minutes ago, bcking said:

I can only speak for myself as I (obviously) don't represent our country, and I would never want to.

 

I would personally advocate for showing them that they can't get away with it, and being serious about it. Even if that means ultimately a military response. I would hope and expect for other countries that see themselves as free, independent, democratic nations would coordinate their efforts together. 

 

But as I said, that is just my personal opinion and I don't pretend to speak for our nation. I tend to have a fairly "no nonsense" view of things, and believe strongly in order and in firm punishments for clear transgressions. An aggressor nation murdering/poisoning people on another a victim nation's soil is a threat to the victim nation's sovereignty. 

We can all hope that, however it's clear that our current policy is generally to merely tolerate the behavior, turn a blind eye, or placate them. A state actor that does these things feels they have nothing left to lose, and nothing that we are currently doing will stop that. Btw, another dead Russian turned up today in the UK. They are investigating, as well as the other 14 of years past.

[Dashinka 24,499]

6 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Dig deeper than the propaganda line.

We can all hope that, however it's clear that our current policy is generally to merely tolerate the behavior, turn a blind eye, or placate them. A state actor that does these things feels they have nothing left to lose, and nothing that we are currently doing will stop that. Btw, another dead Russian turned up today in the UK. They are investigating, as well as the other 14 of years past.

Are you saying that the Polish report was somehow changed by the Russians?

 

Cause of accident according to Polish report:

"The immediate cause of the accident was the descent below the minimum descent altitude at an excessive rate of descent in weather conditions which prevented visual contact with the ground, as well as a delayed execution of the go-around procedure. Those circumstances led to an impact on a terrain obstacle resulting in separation of a part of the left wing with aileron and consequently to the loss of aircraft control and eventual ground impact"^[2]

Circumstances contributing to the accident:^[2]

1. Failure to monitor altitude by means of a pressure altimeter during a non-precision approach;
2. failure by the crew to respond to the PULL UP warning generated by the TAWS;
3. attempt to execute the go-around maneuver under the control of ABSU (automatic go-around);
4. Approach Control confirming to the crew the correct position of the airplane in relation to the RWY threshold, glide slope, and course which might have affirmed the crew's belief that the approach was proceeding correctly although the airplane was actually outside the permissible deviation margin;
5. failure by LZC to inform the crew about descending below the glide slope and delayed issuance of the level-out command;
6. incorrect training of the Tu-154M flight crews in the 36 Regiment.

Conducive circumstances:^[2]

1. incorrect coordination of the crew's work, which placed an excessive burden on the aircraft commander in the final phase of the flight;
2. insufficient flight preparation of the crew;
3. the crew's insufficient knowledge of the airplane's systems and their limitations;
4. inadequate cross-monitoring among the crew members and failure to respond to the mistakes committed;
5. crew composition inadequate for the task;
6. ineffective immediate supervision of the 36 Regiment's flight training process by the Air Force Command;
7. failure by the 36 Regiment to develop procedures governing the crew's actions in the event of:
   • failure to meet the established approach criteria;
   • using radio altimeter for establishing alarm altitude values for various types of approach;
   • distribution of duties in a multi-crew flight.
8. sporadic performance of flight support duties by LZC over the last 12 months, in particular under difficult WC, and lack of practical experience as LZC at the SMOLENSK NORTH airfield.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash

 

Don't get me wrong here, the Russian government is run by some real winners, but accusing them of murdering a sitting head of state does seem to be a bit of a stretch.

[Boiler 45,517]

Trump says US will condemn Russia if it is found to be behind Skripal poisoning - Politics live

 

Guardian

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

8 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Trump says US will condemn Russia if it is found to be behind Skripal poisoning - Politics live

 

Guardian

If?  The man is going to wuss out on this like everything else.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Il Mango Dulce

[yuna628 9,676]

4 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

 

Don't get me wrong here, the Russian government is run by some real winners, but accusing them of murdering a sitting head of state does seem to be a bit of a stretch.

This is not an open and shut case. It is one filled with inaccuracies, suspicion, and still ongoing investigation. Why does it seem a stretch? You don't believe they have murdered heads of state and political opponents before? The list of dead bodies is a long one.

 

7 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Trump says US will condemn Russia if it is found to be behind Skripal poisoning - Politics live

 

Guardian

If, lol. What good does empty condemnation do?

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

 

[smilesammich 10,727]

1 minute ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

If?

putin might believe this was done by jews. or maybe that was just the us election meddling.