Scotland may go its own way

[homesick_american 1]

I will believe Scotland will split off only when I see it.

According to pretty much everything I've read from south of the border, Scotland sucks in more UK money than it sends south. According to everything I've read from north of the border, England Wales and NI will collapse in financial ruin if Scotland and all its oil leave.

Personally I think they're both wrong.

[Leney 0]

There are somethings I just wouldn't want to discuss/debate with friendly folks; abortion, religion, and Scottish Nationalism

[Amby 490]

Interesting. I think let them do it!

[MrsBruce5 0]

Hello,

Let me take a minute to remind you that election time is approaching...and this sort of rhetoric is spewed each time the date rolls around.

Unfortnately-Oil revenues from Aberdeen's North Sea are a HUGE part of the UK's GNP. It would be nice, but unlikely in the next 100 years-not until the oil source dries up...

Rose

[homesick_american 1]

Hello,

Let me take a minute to remind you that election time is approaching...and this sort of rhetoric is spewed each time the date rolls around.

Unfortnately-Oil revenues from Aberdeen's North Sea are a HUGE part of the UK's GNP. It would be nice, but unlikely in the next 100 years-not until the oil source dries up...

Rose

How huge? Let's have some numbers and percentages.

[Leney 0]

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/business.cfm?id=392006

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library/documents-w3/gers-09.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_oil

---- if you really want the information, look it up yourself it's just a google away! hehe

[homesick_american 1]

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/business.cfm?id=392006

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library/documents-w3/gers-09.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_oil

---- if you really want the information, look it up yourself it's just a google away! hehe

According to the Wikipedia link you generously provided, North Sea oil output peaked in 1999 and will be one-third of peak by 2020. Looks like an independent Scotland would go broke too. Also, this means that with or without Scotland, the UK will lose the money from the North Sea oil fields *eventually*. Currently, oil and gas production compose 2% of the UK's GDP. I think the rest of the UK could take that slap, especially without Scotland's lower (below 2%) GDP growth to drag the rest of the UK (nearly 3%) down. Plus, think of all the money the rest of the UK will save when they shift Scotland's tax burden 100% onto the Scottish.

I'm of the opinion that Scotland needs the UK more than the UK needs Scotland.

Edited May 6, 2007 by homesick_american

[Oath 0]

I wrote a post of around 500 words detailing issues with Scotlands independance both north and south of the border, I realised only one person would read it so I'll say this.

Independance will not solve anything, it won't bring Scotlands soldiers home, it will not re-energise shipyards, solve unemployment or bring our country into newfound glory and wealth. It's a ###### election tool.

I am Scottish but I also have an IQ over 20.

[PaulineA 1]

I wrote a post of around 500 words detailing issues with Scotlands independance both north and south of the border, I realised only one person would read it so I'll say this.

Independance will not solve anything, it won't bring Scotlands soldiers home, it will not re-energise shipyards, solve unemployment or bring our country into newfound glory and wealth. It's a ###### election tool.

I am Scottish but I also have an IQ over 20.

What has an IQ of over 20 got to do with it? What do you mean by that statement?

[Kez/JWolf 6]

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/business.cfm?id=392006

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library/documents-w3/gers-09.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_oil

---- if you really want the information, look it up yourself it's just a google away! hehe

According to the Wikipedia link you generously provided, North Sea oil output peaked in 1999 and will be one-third of peak by 2020. Looks like an independent Scotland would go broke too. Also, this means that with or without Scotland, the UK will lose the money from the North Sea oil fields *eventually*. Currently, oil and gas production compose 2% of the UK's GDP. I think the rest of the UK could take that slap, especially without Scotland's lower (below 2%) GDP growth to drag the rest of the UK (nearly 3%) down. Plus, think of all the money the rest of the UK will save when they shift Scotland's tax burden 100% onto the Scottish.

I'm of the opinion that Scotland needs the UK more than the UK needs Scotland.

Maybe you should replace UK with England then your statement would be more accurate.... why oh why do the English think that the rest of the UK could not survive without them.... I guess time will tell....

If Scotland where to be independent and it all went wrong and the country went bankrupt then it would at least be the people of Scotland's fault and not the will imposed on those people by the Westminster Government....

Kez

I wrote a post of around 500 words detailing issues with Scotlands independance both north and south of the border, I realised only one person would read it so I'll say this.

Independance will not solve anything, it won't bring Scotlands soldiers home, it will not re-energise shipyards, solve unemployment or bring our country into newfound glory and wealth. It's a ###### election tool.

I am Scottish but I also have an IQ over 20.

If you did indeed have an IQ of over 20 you would not have made such a stupid comment about the people of Scotland....

Kez

Edited May 6, 2007 by Niagaenola

[Leney 0]

I was a student of history and political science before I decided to have a family, and this entire thing fascinates me to no end. Especially having a keen interest in the American Civil War - brought on, at the true root, by unionist and anti-unionists. As I said previously, I wouldn't want to discuss or debate this with friendly folks - it is something that is felt deeply by the people who believe in it, and it's not really even my place to judge.

One thing I see, that astounds me is the "union" of England and Scotland is 300 years old, while the "union" of the states is 69 years younger. You would be hard pressed to find many with such strong anti-union sentiments in the states (at this point in history!), and if you did, they would be brushed off as cooks and extremists. Yet you see such passion in anti-unionists in Scotland as though they were wronged in their life time. Having lived in both Enland and Scotland, the difference is night and day to me. I liken the pride of Scottish nationality to the pride Americans (please don't take that in a negative) for their country, it's heart warming to see, and it makes me feel honored to have married into such a culture and heritage.

Perhaps Braveheart is to blame for the finger pointing and Westminster hating - darn that Mel Gibson There are painful incidents throughout history for both sides of the coin, and it is easy to lay blame, but after watching Bob the Builder in gaelic many a sunday morning (at our children's insistance) and wondering why god why, I think, in reality the union has worked out for all involved to varying degrees and to think otherwise is perhaps naive. Do I wish my state ruled all I did, and I didn't have to adhere to national American laws? Of course! It would be ideal to not have to pay national and state taxes, to not have to deal with a national government for my passport or to worry about national social security, but in reality, in the world scope, it would be impractical and a bit silly. They say there is always a price for freedom, but at what point do you start getting rediculous and grasping at straws.

I think it's a co-dependant relationship. The UK would hurt without Scotland, just as much as Scotland would hurt without the UK. I think Scotland spoke for herself in pre-election poling and on the nationhood debate tour, stating yeah okay - we want change, we want to see a Scotland with less Labour, but we want the Union. (source http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=72882007)

I also look at it like this, because sometimes we look to the familiar to explain things that are a bit beyond our scope of personal experience - Can you imagine Pennsylvania, as a country independant from the rest of the USA?

Here is a comparision - merely facts:

Scotland - 30,414 sq mi in area, estimated population of 5,116,900 in 2005, largest city is Glasgow (629,501 population)

Pennsylvania - 46,055 sq mi in area, population of 12,281,054 at the 2000 census, largest city is Philadelphia (1,463,281 population)

As written on the PA wiki: Pennsylvania's 2005 total gross state product (GSP) of $430.31 billion (£215.91 billion) ranks the state 6th in the nation. If Pennsylvania were an independent country, its economy would rank as the 17th largest in the world, ahead of Belgium, but behind the Netherlands. On a per-capita basis, though, Pennsylvania's per-capita GSP of $34,619 (£17,370.26) ranks 26th among the 50 states.

As for Scotland, as written on the Scotland wiki: In 2005, total Scottish exports (excluding intra-UK trade) were provisionally estimated to be £17.5 billion ($34.88 billion), of which 70% (£12.2 billion) were attributable to manufacturing. Scotland's primary exports include whisky, electronics and financial services. The United States, The Netherlands, Germany, France and Spain constitute the country's major export markets. In 2002, the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of Scotland was just over £78.5 billion ($156.45 billion), giving a per capita GDP of £15,523.00 ($30,937.41).

---------------------------

Ok - having said all that - here's another thought. The world has been looking at Scotland recently, not only for the elections, the question of an independant Scotland, for the Isle of Skye renaming itself - what does all this do in the grand scheme of things?

Do SNP leaders honestly want an independant Scotland when they go to bed at night? Who knows, but it is definitly a genius little plan to watch the drama unfold as the World looks to Scotland with new interest and attention - generating tourism, business aspirations (Trump is already over there trying to build a golf course now hehe), etc.

I don't have answers really just observations and facts So take from it what you will or ignore it totally!

[Dr_LHA 3]

If Scotland where to be independent and it all went wrong and the country went bankrupt then it would at least be the people of Scotland's fault and not the will imposed on those people by the Westminster Government....

I'm not sure where the feeling of injustice about "Westminster Government" comes from. Scotland has proportionally more MPs per person than England does, so Scotland is really over represented in the UK government in terms of voting power. I tend to view the Union as a single country, I don't really believe that Scotland should have a larger influence in Westminster because of its "country" status.

There's only one reason for me and an Englishman to support Scottish Independance: to stop its inhabitant's incessant pointless bitching about the English. If you guys want to go it alone, by all means go for it. But it you're willing to remove the chip off your shoulder for once I think it would be in both yours and England's best interests to keep the Union together.

I love Scotland, and think it would be a crying shame if it weren't part of the United Kingdom any more. I know the Scots hate the English, but we don't hate you back.

[Oath 0]

I'll bite.

The IQ of 20 comment was simply used to show the lack of any reasoning skill or ability to work things out that arent handed to you on a platter, you being a general and non targeted one.

My comment is stupid because I don't echo you argument even though I'm Scottish, yes? I'm not taken in by the glossy adverts, the false statistics, the bogus claims. The SNP council tax claim is a prime example, a massive source of local revenue, to be scrapped, what will fill the hole? new taxes. No party is different they all make sweeping claims to dazzle the majority who don't know, or want to know better.

Do you think for one second that the United kingdom is resting on the back of Scotland? If you do, walk up the the sink, run your hand in the cold water for about five mins. then slap yourself for me and wake up. The United Kingdom is exactly that, a UNITED KINGDOM we are all part of the whole even though its difficult to see things clearly at times, just as America is only as strong as its member states, and Europe is as strong as hers (don't get me started on the UN)

Oil and Gas will run out, its already doing so, making any argument based on that is fairly dull.

Yet Scotland voted in the SNP (barely), you could claim that its evidence of what I just said, or that people are not satisfied by Labour (anyone that allowed the war to sway their vote should not be voting) and picked the best of a bad bunch. I will say one thing, this so called 'tyrannical rule of westminster' is ###### bullshit, but thats why you have the ability to vote, to exact change as you, the people see fit. Just do not blame anyone else if it goes to ######.

The end.

GGNORE.

I know the Scots hate the English, but we don't hate you back.

I found the opposite to be true guess it depends who you ask.

This really is a subject that people need to take a step back from and look at clearly instead of the rose tinted goggles on the back of braveheart.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Oath

[Dr_LHA 3]

Yet Scotland voted in the SNP (barely), you could claim that its evidence of what I just said, or that people are not satisfied by Labour (anyone that allowed the war to sway their vote should not be voting) and picked the best of a bad bunch.

I was thinking this. When Scottish people are unhappy with Labour, they're not going to vote Conservative or Liberal are they? SNP gains were definately a sign of dissatisfaction with the Labour government more than a groundswell of support for Scottish Independance.

[homesick_american 1]

Maybe you should replace UK with England then your statement would be more accurate.... why oh why do the English think that the rest of the UK could not survive without them.... I guess time will tell....

No, I'm sticking with my original statement. Also, I'm not English and I'm insulted that you didn't take the time to at least glance at my timeline, where it clearly states that I am American.

If Scotland where to be independent and it all went wrong and the country went bankrupt then it would at least be the people of Scotland's fault and not the will imposed on those people by the Westminster Government....

Well, if that's how you feel why don't we just kick all the Scottish MPs out of Westminster? If the English don't get to make decisions that affect Scotland, why should you people get to make decisions that affect England? I've always thought it was stupid that Scotland, Wales, and NI benefit from devolved power arrangements but England does not. If you guys want to be independent, why don't all the Scottish MPs resign from Parliament? Today! I mean, honestly...until they do that, Scottish independence is nothing but a political tool....oiled with hypocrisy.