Bill requiring sale of conventional eggs gets final Iowa Senate OK amid complaints it's anti-free market

[bcking 3,157]

40 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Yeah some of them have a pub, and others have a full restaurant. I guess it's not too different than Fenwicks (like a Macys) in the UK, which has a wine and sushi bar! I can't say anyone behaves disorderly in them though... the clientele are a bit uppity you know? I've seen people go in daily that do not cook at all... and pick up their weekly meals. That's got to be a lot of cash to drop.

My local Kroger has a "wine bar". A ton of Whole Foods have them as well.

 

13 hours ago, yuna628 said:

I'm ashamed that this thread has not yet discussed the way the US stores their eggs compared to Europe.

 

Fridge vs. Counter? My wife hates that I put eggs in the fridge because it makes a lot of baking require significant planning ahead of time (to bring eggs to room temperature).

Edited March 8, 2018 by bcking

[yuna628 9,686]

4 minutes ago, bcking said:

My local Kroger has a "wine bar". A ton of Whole Foods have them as well.

 

Fridge vs. Counter? My wife hates that I put eggs in the fridge because it makes a lot of baking require significant planning ahead of time (to bring eggs to room temperature).

UK eggs are never kept in the fridge section, they also don't seem to be washed either. I'm told it's because they vax the chickens, and that if you wash them the germs get forced into the shell. But still.... blegh! I just could never bring myself to not put an egg in the fridge.

 

IMO though the UK has far better tasting chickens than the US.. not sure why, but they must do something right.

[bcking 3,157]

1 minute ago, yuna628 said:

UK eggs are never kept in the fridge section, they also don't seem to be washed either. I'm told it's because they vax the chickens, and that if you wash them the germs get forced into the shell. But still.... blegh! I just could never bring myself to not put an egg in the fridge.

 

IMO though the UK has far better tasting chickens than the US.. not sure why, but they must do something right.

Meat in general I've noticed on return trips to the UK tend to be better. We go out of our way to get nicer meat in the US (and nicer eggs), though we still stick to grocery stores (we don't have a butcher close enough to us to make it practical) and we still find the meat is better in the UK grocery stores (Waitrose primarily, where she used to shop and her parents still shop). I haven't really compared the cost though. Chickens tend to be huge here, but void of real flavour beyond what you cook it with.

 

With beef she always gets wierded out by the beef that just says something like "Stewing beef" or something. She is used to know exactly what cut it is, even if it is cut into small pieces for a stew. She doesn't like not knowing.

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

I know very little about the meat industry, but I do know some things about bacteria, colonization etc... I'm curious what people's opinions here are on something -

 

If you raised a chicken, killed the chicken, plucked the chicken and prepared the meat yourself. Would you eat it raw? (assuming you want to eat it raw, I mean do you think it would be safe).

 

Salmonella and E. Coli are enteric pathogens. They live in the GI tract. Assuming the chicken wasn't "sick" before death, we can assume they weren't actually septic (the bacteria wasn't in their bloodstream). Since we aren't eating the GI tract, there is no reason that the chicken breast that we eat should be contaminated with the enteric pathogens if the animal is handled properly.

 

My understanding has always been the way the chicken is processed (especially the process of defeathering, on a massive scale) exposes the rest of the chicken to the fecal contents and that is why there is a risk. So if the chicken is processed individually with care, the assumption would be rare chicken wouldn't be an issue. Is that correct?

 

Apologies if this has been mentioned already in the thread, since I joined a little late.

[Ban Hammer 13,417]

28 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

 

 

IMO though the UK has far better tasting chickens than the US.. not sure why, but they must do something right.

so british cluckers taste better?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

24 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

UK eggs are never kept in the fridge section, they also don't seem to be washed either. I'm told it's because they vax the chickens, and that if you wash them the germs get forced into the shell. But still.... blegh! I just could never bring myself to not put an egg in the fridge.

 

IMO though the UK has far better tasting chickens than the US.. not sure why, but they must do something right.

Germs forced into the shells?  I doubt it.  The eggs are washed in a huge industrial washer, then rinsed and dried, candled  (looking for blood eggs", then coated with mineral oil to help seal the shells before packaging.  (Unwashed eggs have some natural antibacterial qualities; washed eggs lose this, and need to be sealed and cooled)

 

Refrigeration is needed due to the long times between laying and buying.  5-6 weeks from laying is possible.  Eggs kept at room temps are much more likely to spoil quickly.  Some say 1 day,  though anyone who raises chickens knows better.  A week is likely fine.  But it REALLY depends on temp.  An egg left in a nest for two days will go bad very quickly as opposed to an egg that is harvested soon after it is laid. 

 

Personally, I would not eat eggs older than about 1 week if not refrigerated.  

 

And for those who look at pack dates on the cartons... do NOT feel secure in those dates.  Many times, eggs are packed for one seller who fails to pick them up.  They sit in a cooler for days to a week or two, then are re-packaged.  Usually, the dates on the carton are wiped clean (if foam), or re-packed if fiber, and a new pack date placed.  So eggs that are a week or two old suddenly appear "fresh" again.

[yuna628 9,686]

Just now, IDWAF said:

Germs forced into the shells?  I doubt it.  The eggs are washed in a huge industrial washer, then rinsed and dried, candled  (looking for blood eggs", then coated with mineral oil to help seal the shells before packaging.  (Unwashed eggs have some natural antibacterial qualities; washed eggs lose this, and need to be sealed and cooled)

 

Refrigeration is needed due to the long times between laying and buying.  5-6 weeks from laying is possible.  Eggs kept at room temps are much more likely to spoil quickly.  Some say 1 day,  though anyone who raises chickens knows better.  A week is likely fine.  But it REALLY depends on temp.  An egg left in a nest for two days will go bad very quickly as opposed to an egg that is harvested soon after it is laid. 

 

Personally, I would not eat eggs older than about 1 week if not refrigerated.  

 

And for those who look at pack dates on the cartons... do NOT feel secure in those dates.  Many times, eggs are packed for one seller who fails to pick them up.  They sit in a cooler for days to a week or two, then are re-packaged.  Usually, the dates on the carton are wiped clean (if foam), or re-packed if fiber, and a new pack date placed.  So eggs that are a week or two old suddenly appear "fresh" again.

Apparently this is what I was told and is written into their egg regulation - for the UK the eggs are not washed (I have personally seen 'dirty' non refrigerated eggs on the shelves) because they believe it forces bacteria into the egg.  They sit on the store shelves at room temp, and after they are purchased, they are left sit out for goodness knows how long in the home (most don't have air conditioned houses.. so let me tell ya.. on a warm summer day... spoilage!). I was horrified and pondering how everyone does not become sick? It would be illegal for our eggs to be sold in the UK, due to how we handle them.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaarumugam/2012/10/25/why-american-eggs-would-be-illegal-in-a-british-supermarket-and-vice-versa/#1bff6c304050

https://gizmodo.com/why-the-british-dont-refrigerate-their-eggs-1604297251

 

Grade A is not allowed to be washed. Grade B is allowed to be washed, but may not be sold at retail.

 

11 minutes ago, Ban Hammer said:

so british cluckers taste better?

Most of their meat is better. Except for the beef, I just couldn't stand it. Too greasy.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Bcking - I eat chicken medium rare quite often.  A LOT depends on how it is packed.  Salmonella exists on the outer skin as well, though at lower concentrations than in the GI tract.  Peel this skin off and wash the meat, and very little will remain on the meat.  The outside will be cooked enough to be rid of the majority of the bacteria.   

 

Now take that same piece of meat, leave the skin on, and cut it... now you are introducing bacteria deeper into the meat.  More chances of infection.

 

Also, as with many things, resistance builds up.  If handling raw chicken daily, you WILL get sick, for the most part.  Be careful all you want, but eventually you'll wipe some bacteria on a mucus membrane.  Just like an immunization,  some will resist,  some will get sick.  (Been there,  and it's not fun).  But after you get sick, there is more immunity I believe.  This anecdotal evidence comes from handling LOTS of raw chicken daily in my distant past.  Today, I try never to handle raw chicken then touch anything else prior to washing.

 

Salmonella does not exist in the meat mostly because of immunizations.  Only a sick chicken, or poor packing practices will infect a typical piece of meat.  Leave an untainted piece out long enough at warm temps, and all bets are off.  That's part of the reason chickens are often flash-frozen.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

1 minute ago, yuna628 said:

Apparently this is what I was told and is written into their egg regulation - for the UK the eggs are not washed (I have personally seen 'dirty' non refrigerated eggs on the shelves) because they believe it forces bacteria into the egg.  They sit on the store shelves at room temp, and after they are purchased, they are left sit out for goodness knows how long in the home (most don't have air conditioned houses.. so let me tell ya.. on a warm summer day... spoilage!). I was horrified and pondering how everyone does not become sick? It would be illegal for our eggs to be sold in the UK, due to how we handle them.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaarumugam/2012/10/25/why-american-eggs-would-be-illegal-in-a-british-supermarket-and-vice-versa/#1bff6c304050

https://gizmodo.com/why-the-british-dont-refrigerate-their-eggs-1604297251

 

Grade A is not allowed to be washed. Grade B is allowed to be washed, but may not be sold at retail.

 

Most of their meat is better. Except for the beef, I just couldn't stand it. Too greasy.

Yes, washing eggs is not called for if not refrigerated.  At home,  we would knock off the large pieces of poop,  but not wash them.  

 

But I wouldn't buy warm eggs unless it was from someone whom I could trust to assure me they were no older than a day or two.  Never from a grocer.

[yuna628 9,686]

39 minutes ago, bcking said:

Meat in general I've noticed on return trips to the UK tend to be better. We go out of our way to get nicer meat in the US (and nicer eggs), though we still stick to grocery stores (we don't have a butcher close enough to us to make it practical) and we still find the meat is better in the UK grocery stores (Waitrose primarily, where she used to shop and her parents still shop). I haven't really compared the cost though. Chickens tend to be huge here, but void of real flavour beyond what you cook it with.

 

With beef she always gets wierded out by the beef that just says something like "Stewing beef" or something. She is used to know exactly what cut it is, even if it is cut into small pieces for a stew. She doesn't like not knowing.

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

I know very little about the meat industry, but I do know some things about bacteria, colonization etc... I'm curious what people's opinions here are on something -

 

If you raised a chicken, killed the chicken, plucked the chicken and prepared the meat yourself. Would you eat it raw? (assuming you want to eat it raw, I mean do you think it would be safe).

 

Salmonella and E. Coli are enteric pathogens. They live in the GI tract. Assuming the chicken wasn't "sick" before death, we can assume they weren't actually septic (the bacteria wasn't in their bloodstream). Since we aren't eating the GI tract, there is no reason that the chicken breast that we eat should be contaminated with the enteric pathogens if the animal is handled properly.

 

My understanding has always been the way the chicken is processed (especially the process of defeathering, on a massive scale) exposes the rest of the chicken to the fecal contents and that is why there is a risk. So if the chicken is processed individually with care, the assumption would be rare chicken wouldn't be an issue. Is that correct?

 

Apologies if this has been mentioned already in the thread, since I joined a little late.

I could never eat anything raw or even a little rare. The thought of it puts me right off. I know a lot of people that get into the trend of raw-feeding their dogs...and I couldn't do that either.

 

Just now, IDWAF said:

Yes, washing eggs is not called for if not refrigerated.  At home,  we would knock off the large pieces of poop,  but not wash them.  

 

But I wouldn't buy warm eggs unless it was from someone whom I could trust to assure me they were no older than a day or two.  Never from a grocer.

How are they all not getting sick then?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

2 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I could never eat anything raw or even a little rare. The thought of it puts me right off. I know a lot of people that get into the trend of raw-feeding their dogs...and I couldn't do that either.

 

How are they all not getting sick then?

Resistance and immunity likely make a difference.  Temps too.  Room temp is much better than henhouse temp.  I've seen eggs that were stuck in layer cages for days that literally explode when handled.  Smaller operations will typically rarely yield older eggs, since it's more hands-on.

 

As for meat... I eat raw beef all the time.  Have since about 6 years of age.  Again, it's what your body is used to.  You and I could eat the same piece of raw beef, and you might sick whereas I would not.

[bcking 3,157]

29 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

Germs forced into the shells?  I doubt it.  The eggs are washed in a huge industrial washer, then rinsed and dried, candled  (looking for blood eggs", then coated with mineral oil to help seal the shells before packaging.  (Unwashed eggs have some natural antibacterial qualities; washed eggs lose this, and need to be sealed and cooled)

 

Refrigeration is needed due to the long times between laying and buying.  5-6 weeks from laying is possible.  Eggs kept at room temps are much more likely to spoil quickly.  Some say 1 day,  though anyone who raises chickens knows better.  A week is likely fine.  But it REALLY depends on temp.  An egg left in a nest for two days will go bad very quickly as opposed to an egg that is harvested soon after it is laid. 

 

Personally, I would not eat eggs older than about 1 week if not refrigerated.  

 

And for those who look at pack dates on the cartons... do NOT feel secure in those dates.  Many times, eggs are packed for one seller who fails to pick them up.  They sit in a cooler for days to a week or two, then are re-packaged.  Usually, the dates on the carton are wiped clean (if foam), or re-packed if fiber, and a new pack date placed.  So eggs that are a week or two old suddenly appear "fresh" again.

Do you believe in the "egg freshness" test of placing it in water and seeing if it sinks/floats? 

 

I wonder if you looked at the eggs sold in British grocery stores if you would find that the time from laying to sale is much shorter? It's not like her family goes out and buys the best eggs available. There aren't all the options like we have here ("Conventional", Cage Free, Free Range, Pasture raised etc...). They just buy eggs from Waitrose, and leave them out. They probably don't use them after a week though.

 

12 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I could never eat anything raw or even a little rare. The thought of it puts me right off. I know a lot of people that get into the trend of raw-feeding their dogs...and I couldn't do that either.

 

I've eaten beef carpaccio, tartare or similar dishes. I won't chose it if it's on a menu, but if it's part of a multi-course meal I'll eat it.

 

18 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

Bcking - I eat chicken medium rare quite often.  A LOT depends on how it is packed.  Salmonella exists on the outer skin as well, though at lower concentrations than in the GI tract.  Peel this skin off and wash the meat, and very little will remain on the meat.  The outside will be cooked enough to be rid of the majority of the bacteria.   

 

Does Salmonella exist on the outer skin due to preparation of their meat, or do you mean living chickens walking around have Salmonella on their skin?

 

Salmonella, at least for humans, doesn't typically live on the skin for very long. It's an enteric pathogen. The time it spends on skin/surfaces, at least for humans, is typically just in transit through the "fecal oral route".

 

It's interesting trying to apply what I know about humans to animals. I've been in some interesting conversations with Vets before. Some things work, some things don't.

Edited March 8, 2018 by bcking

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

11 minutes ago, bcking said:

Do you believe in the "egg freshness" test of placing it in water and seeing if it sinks/floats? 

 

I wonder if you looked at the eggs sold in British grocery stores if you would find that the time from laying to sale is much shorter? It's not like her family goes out and buys the best eggs available. There aren't all the options like we have here ("Conventional", Cage Free, Free Range, Pasture raised etc...). They just buy eggs from Waitrose, and leave them out. They probably don't use them after a week though.

 

I've eaten beef carpaccio, tartare or similar dishes. I won't chose it if it's on a menu, but if it's part of a multi-course meal I'll eat it.

 

Does Salmonella exist on the outer skin due to preparation of their meat, or do you mean living chickens walking around have Salmonella on their skin?

 

Salmonella, at least for humans, doesn't typically live on the skin for very long. It's an enteric pathogen. The time it spends on skin/surfaces, at least for humans, is typically just in transit through the "fecal oral route".

 

It's interesting trying to apply what I know about humans to animals. I've been in some interesting conversations with Vets before. Some things work, some things don't.

The reason the float test works is that the air sac gets larger as a non-viable egg ages.  So it does tell you that the sac is larger, but why?  A crack in the shell invisible to the naked eye could cause this in a fresher egg vs a intact egg that is say a week old.  I've never used it to test freshness, personally.  I use the smell test.

 

Salmonella won't be on the skin on a immunized chicken, most likely.  But the food prep surface?  Sure.  Now it gets on the skin of the good meat.  Will it do damage?  Depends... How long is it exposed at warm temps before it is frozen or refrigerated?  What if the person doing the prep leaves meat on the counter and takes a break?  Or goes to lunch?  As you know, the salmonella will go crazy reproducing.

 

If you butcher and clean a chicken at home, you KNOW it is fresh and how it is handled.  Not so much with so-called  Grade A procedures.  Now take to the next level I. A third world place where you can buy raw chicken from a sidewalk stand where they use banana leaves to shew the flies off the meat as it sits in 90° temps slowly breeding massive colonies....

Edited March 8, 2018 by IDWAF

[bcking 3,157]

11 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

If you butcher and clean a chicken at home, you KNOW it is fresh and how it is handled.  Not so much with so-called  Grade A procedures.  Now take to the next level I. A third world place where you can buy raw chicken from a sidewalk stand where they use banana leaves to shew the flies off the meat as it sits in 90° temps slowly breeding massive colonies....

That reminds me of many of my trips to Asia....

 

I sure did love the "street cart" chicken satay with peanut sauce in Indonesia...though sometimes I wasn't exactly sure that everything I was eating was actually meat.

 

In Bangkok my first "date" with my wife (we spent 4 days on a sail boat tour initially, which was how we met so this was our first outing after the tour) we went to a Chatuchak market. I ate something on a stick that to this day I don't exactly know what it was. I think it was some sort of mollusk based on texture and appearance, but it was mostly to impress her "Look how comfortable I am with foreign cultures". Fortunately I didn't get sick.

 

Fast forward 6 years and within 24 hours of arriving in Kuala Lumpur we both got violently ill (GI illnesses). We had only eaten in 2 restaurants, both in one of the malls there. Nothing you would consider "unsafe". We just got unlucky (at least that's my view).

Edited March 8, 2018 by bcking

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

1 minute ago, bcking said:

That reminds me of many of my trips to Asia....

 

I sure did love the "street cart" chicken satay with peanut sauce in Indonesia...though sometimes I wasn't exactly sure that everything I was eating was actually meat.

 

In Bangkok my first "date" with my wife (we spent 4 days on a sail boat tour initially, which was how we met so this was our first outing after the tour) we went to a Chatuchak market. I ate something on a stick that to this day I don't exactly know what it was. I think it was some sort of mollusk based on texture and appearance, but it was mostly to impress her "Look how comfortable I am with foreign cultures". Fortunately I didn't get sick.

 

Fast forward 6 years and within 24 hours of arriving in Kuala Lumpur we both got violently ill (GI illnesses). We had only eaten in 2 restaurants, both in one of the malls there. Nothing you would consider "unsafe". We just got unlucky (at least that's my view).

Oh man... I once ate some BBQ chicken intestines on a stick.  Considering salmonella is a GI tract thing, and the third world practices, it may not have been smart.  Only ate a few bites.  My wife ate most of it.  It was pretty tasty.  But the sick I endure for the next 3 days... wow!  Made my salmonella sickness from years ago feel like a great day.

 

Another time, I landed in Turkey. Got off the plane, only drinking bottled water I had from the plane... and had the "Turkey trots" within a few hours, no food consumed.  Zero resistance to whatever was normal over there,  I guess.

[TBoneTX 45,570]

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 11:16 AM, TBoneTX said:

sale of conventional eggs

Figured it out!  "Conventional" eggs can be sold only at gatherings (if large enough) like this:  http://www.eggfarmers.org/

Got it, first try, si man.