General State of the Union Thread

[Dashinka 24,889]

1 minute ago, smilesammich said:

yeah, byrd explicitly apologized. trump doesn't do that. he owns up to nothing.

How do you know?  Sounds like mind is made up.

[Dashinka 24,889]

Just now, bcking said:

My opinions are just based on when I've seen him interview with people. He has said demonstrably false things, that I'm sure he knows are false, but he does so with a straight face. I'm not exactly sure he has a moral compass.

 

Like I said, the best comparison I can make is with Kellyanne. If Trump claimed that the moon was triangular she would likely come up with some reasoning as to why either that A. Could be true or B. Trump didn't mean what he said. All else fails, it would be an alternative fact.

A lot of politicians act that way, how can you tell the difference between say Miller and Nancy Pelosi?

[bcking 3,157]

5 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

How do you know?  Sounds like mind is made up.

How do we know Trump has never owned up to past mistakes?

 

Do you have any examples where he has? Many of the things in that NYT list is hearsay, at best. However even those that can be confirmed - Has Trump ever expressed regret or acknowledged it in any way?

 

The issue with housing and giving preferential treatment to white people - Has he acknowledged that, expressed regret, "owned up" to it? His continuing to claim that those kids were guilty in NYC of the rape and murder despite DNA evidence years after the fact, has he owned up to that in any way? Even the Obama birth certificate issue he hasn't clearly come out and said he was wrong. I recall he somehow tried to spin it as if he was the one that "finally confirmed" he was actually born in the USA. As if he was responsible for both the investigation and the conclusion.

Edited February 1, 2018 by bcking

[smilesammich 10,727]

3 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

How do you know?  Sounds like mind is made up.

how do i know trump hasn't apologized for being racist? because he hasn't.

[bcking 3,157]

1 minute ago, Bill & Katya said:

A lot of politicians act that way, how can you tell the difference between say Miller and Nancy Pelosi?

I don't particularly like her very much either. She also seems rather slippery in interviews. 

 

All politicians were say things that are wrong for sure. They will also all stretch the truth. I just always get the impression from interviews with Miller and Conway that they both are FULLY aware of when they are lying or making things up, but are 100% comfortable with it. I have nothing to back that up, I've never claimed to have evidence. It's just an impression from how they interview. Especially Miller recently in interviews has seemed prepared to argue his point because he knows it's false and he knows he'll be called out on it, but he needs/wants to say it anyway.

[Dashinka 24,889]

Just now, bcking said:

How do we know Trump has never owned up to past mistakes?

 

Do you have any examples where he has? Many of the things in that NYT list is hearsay, at best. However even those that can be confirmed - Has Trump ever expressed regret or acknowledged it in any way?

 

The issue with housing and giving preferential treatment to white people - Has he acknowledged that, expressed regret, "owned up" to it? His continuing to claim that those kids were guilty despite DNA evidence years after the fact, has he owned up to that in any way? Even the Obama birth certificate issue he hasn't clearly come out and said he was wrong. I recall he somehow tried to spin it as if he was the one that "finally confirmed" he was actually born in the USA. As if he was responsible for both the investigation and the conclusion.

Not anything that would satisfy the MDL.  There are a lot of articles out there talking about how Trump helps out his employees and others, but he is labeled a racist and a bigot, so they fall on deaf ears.

 

The thing I find interesting is that many of the folks that label others racist ignore the fact that they discriminate as much as anyone else.

[bcking 3,157]

7 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Not anything that would satisfy the MDL.  There are a lot of articles out there talking about how Trump helps out his employees and others, but he is labeled a racist and a bigot, so they fall on deaf ears.

 

The thing I find interesting is that many of the folks that label others racist ignore the fact that they discriminate as much as anyone else.

Even if it wouldn't satisfy them (the amorphous "MDL" that is referenced frequently here, but that I've never actually seen or met), please provide me with the references. It may satisfy me. I try to be fair and balanced. Even in this thread alone I've supported many aspects of the SOTU address, and some of the positive changes we've seen over the past year. I'm trying trying to stir the pot but I do try to take a well reasoned and fair approach to things, though personality is a heavily weighted factor for me (which is why Trump continues to be a problem for me).

 

I just tried googling to find any situation where Trump has EVER admitted that he was wrong about anything. Not even just racist actions, just any action. I'm struggling to find examples. He was interviewed once and said he would absolutely apologize "If [he] was ever wrong". I think he truly believes that he has never actually been wrong about anything. Candidates he's support that don't win? Well he "knew all along". Obama's birth certificate? Somehow he knew it was real despite claiming it wasn't?

 

I'm trying to just find any examples of him saying "I was mistaken", "I was wrong" or any version of that. Ideally about the current topic (acts of discrimination) but at this point I'd take anything.

 

In an interview with Playboy in the 90's he did say that some of what was said about him (particularly with regards to his casinos) was probably true. If that's the case, and he has changed, then why can't he say "I did do those things, I did say those things. I was wrong. I was young, and my perspective has changed as I've learned more and I realize now that I shouldn't have done that". Instead he just denies.

Edited February 1, 2018 by bcking

[bcking 3,157]

I'll add one to start, but please try to find more - 

 

He provided an "apology" for the "locker room talk" issue. Though his exact words were "I apologize if anyone was offended". So it wasn't an acknowledgment that what he said was wrong, it was an apology only if someone was offended by it. 

 

Still at least it's a start.

 

Are there any other examples?

[Dashinka 24,889]

8 minutes ago, bcking said:

I'll add one to start, but please try to find more - 

 

He provided an "apology" for the "locker room talk" issue. Though his exact words were "I apologize if anyone was offended". So it wasn't an acknowledgment that what he said was wrong, it was an apology only if someone was offended by it. 

 

Still at least it's a start.

 

Are there any other examples?

Here is a start.  Make sure you put on your left wing media filter. 

 

https://www.snopes.com/so-you-think-you-know-donald-trump/

[Dashinka 24,889]

20 minutes ago, bcking said:

Even if it wouldn't satisfy them (the amorphous "MDL" that is referenced frequently here, but that I've never actually seen or met), please provide me with the references. It may satisfy me. I try to be fair and balanced. Even in this thread alone I've supported many aspects of the SOTU address, and some of the positive changes we've seen over the past year. I'm trying trying to stir the pot but I do try to take a well reasoned and fair approach to things, though personality is a heavily weighted factor for me (which is why Trump continues to be a problem for me).

 

I just tried googling to find any situation where Trump has EVER admitted that he was wrong about anything. Not even just racist actions, just any action. I'm struggling to find examples. He was interviewed once and said he would absolutely apologize "If [he] was ever wrong". I think he truly believes that he has never actually been wrong about anything. Candidates he's support that don't win? Well he "knew all along". Obama's birth certificate? Somehow he knew it was real despite claiming it wasn't?

 

I'm trying to just find any examples of him saying "I was mistaken", "I was wrong" or any version of that. Ideally about the current topic (acts of discrimination) but at this point I'd take anything.

 

In an interview with Playboy in the 90's he did say that some of what was said about him (particularly with regards to his casinos) was probably true. If that's the case, and he has changed, then why can't he say "I did do those things, I did say those things. I was wrong. I was young, and my perspective has changed as I've learned more and I realize now that I shouldn't have done that". Instead he just denies.

Here is some more (a few duplicates).

 

https://ijr.com/2015/11/461306-these-5-acts-of-kindness-reveal-theres-more-to-donald-trump-than-just-his-celebrity-persona/

[bcking 3,157]

1 minute ago, Bill & Katya said:

Here is a start.  Make sure you put on your left wing media filter. 

 

https://www.snopes.com/so-you-think-you-know-donald-trump/

I wasn't asking for examples where Trump may have done good deeds. Just like we all make mistakes, and we are all wrong sometimes, we all also (hopefully) do good things occasionally as well.

 

In glancing through the article I didn't find any examples where Trump ever acknowledge a time when he was wrong about something, or expressed regret for doing something in hindsight etc...

 

A common argument for Trump is that some of the claims are a long time ago, and "people can change". If that is the explanation, then we aren't denying that he did some of those things in the past. If he did those things, but he has changed - Has he ever said "Hey yes I did those things, I regret them now because I realize they were foolish or wrong etc..."?

 

If we want to get specific - The investigation into his discrimination in NYC in the 70's. Do you disagree with the investigation's results? As far as I'm aware Trump has always claimed it was "unfair" and that what they did was fine, and yet they settled. Who was it that once said that settling means your guilty? Oh ya - The very same Donald Trump.

 

It's fine if that was "70's Trump" and he is a different man now. I can absolutely excuse someone for some things they did 40 years ago and I could excuse him for this. But to my knowledge he has never just claimed it as an "Old him" and that he has "changed" somehow. He instead just denies everything.

[bcking 3,157]

3 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Here is some more (a few duplicates).

 

https://ijr.com/2015/11/461306-these-5-acts-of-kindness-reveal-theres-more-to-donald-trump-than-just-his-celebrity-persona/

Ya I really don't think you are understanding my request.

 

I'm not asking for acts of kindness. I'm sure he has done kind things. I'm asking for acts of admission of wrong doing.

 

Earlier in the thread someone (Don't recall if it was you or not) said something like "People can change" and then made some reference to how "Oh maybe just for the MDL" or something (I'm paraphrasing).

 

If we are trying to apply that statement ("People can change") to Trump, I'd like to see examples where Trump has actually suggested that he has changed his views, and that something (anything) he has done in the past was "wrong", in hindsight.

 

I honestly think he is incapable of doing that. It's like a personality thing, and part of what I will never like about him. It goes well beyond politics. He could still be a Democrat and I'd still not like him. I don't like people who somehow think they are infallible and make excuses in every situation where they are wrong.

[Dashinka 24,889]

5 minutes ago, bcking said:

I wasn't asking for examples where Trump may have done good deeds. Just like we all make mistakes, and we are all wrong sometimes, we all also (hopefully) do good things occasionally as well.

 

In glancing through the article I didn't find any examples where Trump ever acknowledge a time when he was wrong about something, or expressed regret for doing something in hindsight etc...

 

A common argument for Trump is that some of the claims are a long time ago, and "people can change". If that is the explanation, then we aren't denying that he did some of those things in the past. If he did those things, but he has changed - Has he ever said "Hey yes I did those things, I regret them now because I realize they were foolish or wrong etc..."?

 

If we want to get specific - The investigation into his discrimination in NYC in the 70's. Do you disagree with the investigation's results? As far as I'm aware Trump has always claimed it was "unfair" and that what they did was fine, and yet they settled. Who was it that once said that settling means your guilty? Oh ya - The very same Donald Trump.

 

It's fine if that was "70's Trump" and he is a different man now. I can absolutely excuse someone for some things they did 40 years ago and I could excuse him for this. But to my knowledge he has never just claimed it as an "Old him" and that he has "changed" somehow. He instead just denies everything.

He has been labeled as the worst racist in history by many here in CEHST.  Many of the folks he has helped out were POC.  How does this correlate with him being as racist as Hitler?

 

I do not disagree with the 1970's investigation, but would you agree that this a different time?  Do you have examples of the same discrimination going on now from the Trump organization? 

[smilesammich 10,727]

29 minutes ago, bcking said:

I'll add one to start, but please try to find more - 

 

He provided an "apology" for the "locker room talk" issue. Though his exact words were "I apologize if anyone was offended". So it wasn't an acknowledgment that what he said was wrong, it was an apology only if someone was offended by it. 

 

Still at least it's a start.

 

Are there any other examples?

you mean the locker room talk that he questioned even being him? https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/trump-access-hollywood-tape-fake

7 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

He has been labeled as the worst racist in history by many here in CEHST.  Many of the folks he has helped out were POC.  How does this correlate with him being as racist as Hitler?

 

I do not disagree with the 1970's investigation, but would you agree that this a different time?  Do you have examples of the same discrimination going on now from the Trump organization? 

i haven't seen him labeled as the worst racist in history by anybody.

 

 

[bcking 3,157]

9 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

He has been labeled as the worst racist in history by many here in CEHST.  Many of the folks he has helped out were POC.  How does this correlate with him being as racist as Hitler?

 

I do not disagree with the 1970's investigation, but would you agree that this a different time?  Do you have examples of the same discrimination going on now from the Trump organization? 

Honestly are you ignoring my posts when you quote them? I'm trying to bold things to make it clearer for you. You are completely avoiding my question.

 

First off - I've never compared him to Hitler, and would never do so. I've already admitted that many examples in the NYT list was hearsay, at best. I'm not looking for examples of "Good behavior" to outweigh "Bad Behavior".

 

I completely agree that this is a different time. Has Trump ever used that as the reasoning for the discrimination in the 70's? Has he ever apologized, or admitted that he actually did it but he regrets. Has he ever admitted that he has "changed" for the better. If we want to use that excuse for him, it needs to come from him instead of us using the excuses. To my knowledge he has only EVER denied wrongdoing in that case. He has claimed it wasn't discrimination and he has claimed the investigation was "unfair" to him and his father.

 

I'm just going to assume since you can't actually find examples where he has admitted wrong doing in the past or admitted mistakes that, as expected, he has never done so. I don't think it is reasonable to use that excuse ("It was a long time ago") if it hasn't ever come from him. To excuse something because it was in the past, it needs to come with the acknowledgement that the action was wrong in retrospect. I've never seen that from Trump.

Edited February 1, 2018 by bcking