Latest update on DACA and deal for family migration proposed by Trump

[Crazy Cat 41,985]

3 minutes ago, Gamboli said:

I was under the impression that collection agencies can technically collect from immediate relatives of an individual in debt

Absolutely false......unless the relative signs an agreement for financial responsibility..

 

and insurance information is asked for before any treatment unless the patient is unconscious..

Edited January 30, 2018 by missileman

[Gamboli 48]

1 minute ago, missileman said:

Absolutely false......unless the relative signs an agreement for financial responsibility..

Ok then great. When you sponsor someone it should be included that you have to pay up for anything they can't pay up then. 

 

For life. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Gamboli

[Gamboli 48]

9 minutes ago, missileman said:

and insurance information is asked for before any treatment unless the patient is unconscious..

I had to go to ER about a year ago after my car got t-boned. I was asked to fill out paperwork before I was admitted, but they didn't ask for my insurance (at least I can't remember) until after I was about to be released. But I remember having to provide not only my healthcare insurance, but also the information of the driver that hit me with their car (it was their fault) before I was let go. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Gamboli

[Orangesapples 1,954]

51 minutes ago, Gamboli said:

That is fine. But I think this could be addressed fairly easily to reduce some of the misuse. 

The creditor, in this case the healthcare provider still gets information such as your Social Security, etc at the time of admission. After the treatment they usually ask for your health insurance, etc. It could be included so that they could verify the patient identity, and send the bill to their address, if the bill is not paid after certain time, they could find the people who sponsor them like their children, etc. (The debt collectors in some case could even collect from family members if you can't pay, this shouldn't be any different)

 

I was under the impression that collection agencies can technically collect from immediate relatives of an individual in debt. I remember reading stories about how two siblings were harassed by creditors after their father passed away. (This story is not immigration-related)

Or maybe address the ridiculous price of healthcare in the US. This would solve many more problems. The same medicine that costs $60 in Canada costs over $600 in the US. This is a much more pressing problem. 

[Gamboli 48]

8 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

Or maybe address the ridiculous price of healthcare in the US. This would solve many more problems. The same medicine that costs $60 in Canada costs over $600 in the US. This is a much more pressing problem. 

Believe me I understand where you're coming from (I have traveled quite a lot), but fixing that issue in the U.S. would require huge technological disruption and policy changes, both sides have a lot of valid arguments. It's really a long discussion.

 

To narrow the scope of discussion to the topic at hand, I think most people are just concerned about having to pay for someone else's "stuff", and I think holding the sponsors responsible for both private and public debt would be the fastest way to address the concerns that most people have. It might also help reduce the prices a bit, I believe Emergency Rooms treatments are expensive due to taking into account the losses they may incur due to people not being able to pay (both legals and illegals). Average cost of ER visit is about $1,200 after all, one way this could be addressed is by correcting consumer behavior as well. Avoid ER like the plague unless absolutely necessary, go to Urgent Care instead, most of them would see you for $120 or so dollars which is quite close to cost of ER visit in Australia for example (about $118).

Edited January 30, 2018 by Gamboli

[dawning 212]

16 hours ago, falmaind said:

The reason for the hate is the mode of their arrival. Were they not here, would our economy collapse? No. They are making themselves available and undercutting those who are here legally. They are throwing themselves at the US of A. What if I came to your house and painted it without your permission or without you asking of me... and then I expected a fair compensation... would you pay me? (maybe once). Would you pay me everyday? no you would get sick of me

 

 

I live in California and know enough about the labor intensive agriculture here to know that it would grind to a halt without undocumented workers.  I can't answer your question about the economy as a whole, whether it would collapse, but I do think it would be seriously shaken if they all disappeared tomorrow, and the food supply could be impacted for sure in the short term.

[Gamboli 48]

4 minutes ago, Dee elle said:

One impact of " fixing" the US Health system would be that approx 7 out of every 10 people working in the health care sector...from medical, administration,insurance etc, would become unemployed . Go to the Dr here and you will see upwards of 7 different people providing a part of the service..,other  similar countries , such as Australia , you would see 3 at the most..,reception, nurse, Dr. 

Also U.S. Doctors on average conduct far more tests than doctors in countries before making a diagnosis, insurance companies know that as well.

Since cost of medical tests are higher on average than rest of the world, it could be expected that it could lead to higher premiums as well. After all health insurance companies are a business. Realistically speaking each individual is responsible for their own health, while genetics is an important factor, diet, exercise and taking the preventive care seriously could bring the cost of healthcare down. 

[Gamboli 48]

1 minute ago, dawning said:

I live in California and know enough about the labor intensive agriculture here to know that it would grind to a halt without undocumented workers.  I can't answer your question about the economy as a whole, whether it would collapse, but I do think it would be seriously shaken if they all disappeared tomorrow, and the food supply could be impacted for sure in the short term.

I don't think it could collapse, but I believe a lot of smaller businesses that can't afford to pay wages that would attract Americans would go out of business or be absorbed by bigger players, and bigger companies would more likely resort to automation (There are already robots available that could pick, and sort fruits with higher efficiency than humans). There could be a short-term price-hike tho, but in medium to long-term it could even lead to lower prices.

[falmaind 13]

11 minutes ago, dawning said:

I live in California and know enough about the labor intensive agriculture here to know that it would grind to a halt without undocumented workers.  I can't answer your question about the economy as a whole, whether it would collapse, but I do think it would be seriously shaken if they all disappeared tomorrow, and the food supply could be impacted for sure in the short term.

I wholly agree with your observation. But It is not ir-replacable. The illegal workforce has slowly seeped into the economy. So if they vanish overnight, it is going to be shock to a lot. Yes. But if they vanish as slowly as they came, market may adjust with higher prices, but no where close to collapse.

[dawning 212]

9 hours ago, csk2b1 said:

An amazing thread...a mixture of emotions, opinions and heresay. Pitting one group against another; just like in real life..Citizens against Muslims, Siblings against DACA. Exactly what the Administration hoped would happen. Very dangerous...

 

Did anyone see the recent the White House spiel on chain migration - entire villages were relocating to the United States in 1 year? And the other one on the "fact" that virtually all terrorists currently on trail within United States territory are foreign born IMMIGRANTS? And they have the gumption to call out fake news in our media when they manipulate the truth. If you were to look into the details on the terrorist immigrants: all captured overseas and brought to US terrorists for trial. Yes I suppose they are immigrants as they had to be admitted to face trial and they are terrorists, or at least pursued as such.

 

Immigration for all of us is very emotional. That can be see everyday on this forum but don't let the emotions over rule rational thought. We all know someone going through a horrendous time with regards to DACA, AOS or some other form of immigration. 

 

Peace out....

That's an important observation... there's a lot of political manipulations going on, and it's easy for those of us on this forum to forget that the general public is not as knowledgeable about immigration policy as we are and can be much more easily swayed based on incomplete or incorrect information.

For example, I was hearing a little bit ago about a potential DACA deal that would allow DACA recipients to stay, but bar them from sponsoring their parents for citizenship.  I am not aware that anyone can sponsor anyone for citizenship.  For residency yes.  But that is the sort of distinction that large parts of the public are not familiar with.

 

It is also occurring to me to wonder if part of what is getting some people interested in removing parent migration is that there are a lot of US born citizen children of EWI immigrants, and maybe the anti-amnesty crowd doesn't want any chance they (the parents) could stay/come back?  I would guess a high percentage of DACA eligible immigrants have USC younger siblings.

[dawning 212]

3 minutes ago, falmaind said:

I wholly agree with your observation. But It is not ir-replacable. The illegal workforce has slowly seeped into the economy. So if they vanish overnight, it is going to be shock to a lot. Yes. But if they vanish as slowly as they came, market may adjust with higher prices, but no where close to collapse.

That may already be happening... the statistics I have heard indicate that the number of illegal immigrants in the US has been decreasing for several years, and among those the percentage that are undocumented (never had any kind of visa) is getting lower.  I do know that agricultural business people in my community are worried what the political climate will do the supply of workers for this year.

 

Either way, I think the moral question still stands:  you can get upset that undocumented immigrants go to the emergency room and can't pay for it.  But the fact that they were exposed to pesticides (or whatever other occupational hazard you want to insert here) for years to get food on your table might make you (that is to say all of us) partly responsible?

[falmaind 13]

2 minutes ago, dawning said:

That may already be happening... the statistics I have heard indicate that the number of illegal immigrants in the US has been decreasing for several years, and among those the percentage that are undocumented (never had any kind of visa) is getting lower.  I do know that agricultural business people in my community are worried what the political climate will do the supply of workers for this year.

 

Either way, I think the moral question still stands:  you can get upset that undocumented immigrants go to the emergency room and can't pay for it.  But the fact that they were exposed to pesticides (or whatever other occupational hazard you want to insert here) for years to get food on your table might make you (that is to say all of us) partly responsible?

I think you are still not seeing my point (which is ok).

 

These people came here willfuly and threw themselves at our economy? Yes?

We did not ask them to do these jobs

I would rather have legal labor which would ask higher wages and I would pay higher food prices.

 

I would feel full responsibility IF I had invited these folks. Massively underpaid them. so much so that they cannot afford healthcare. Yes then I would be full of guilt.

 

Its not entirely equivalent. But in a very rude way to describe the situation is what if someone throws themselves in front of your car.. I would feel bad the person is injured but I would not have the same level of guilt if I had run into the person...

[Orangesapples 1,954]

6 minutes ago, falmaind said:

I think you are still not seeing my point (which is ok).

 

These people came here willfuly and threw themselves at our economy? Yes?

We did not ask them to do these jobs

I would rather have legal labor which would ask higher wages and I would pay higher food prices.

 

I would feel full responsibility IF I had invited these folks. Massively underpaid them. so much so that they cannot afford healthcare. Yes then I would be full of guilt.

 

Its not entirely equivalent. But in a very rude way to describe the situation is what if someone throws themselves in front of your car.. I would feel bad the person is injured but I would not have the same level of guilt if I had run into the person...

Punish the employers who take advantage of illegal workers. Instead of investing money in a wall, invest them in nation wide labor commissions that do extensive checks and impose severe punishment to employers that employ people without the necessary documents. Make the punishment proportional to the size of the business so that it hurts big companies enough for them to not consider employing illegals. The employers who are unwilling to pay for domestic workers are at fault the most. Your rage should be directed towards them, not towards the poor people who are doing whatever they can to feed their families. Workers need more rights. Employers need more consequences. 

[falmaind 13]

Just now, Orangesapples said:

Punish the employers who take advantage of illegal workers. Instead of investing money in a wall, invest them in nation wide labor commissions that do extensive checks and impose severe punishment to employers that employ people without the necessary documents. Make the punishment proportional to the size of the business so that it hurts big companies enough for them to not consider employing illegals. The employers who are unwilling to pay for domestic workers are at fault the most. Your rage should be directed towards them, not towards the poor people who are doing whatever they can to feed their families. Workers need more rights. Employers need more consequences. 

I am not among those who sees the illegals as less than human. I'm an just trying to explain my lowered level of empathy.  I don't think it is right (if it is true) when border security agents destroy rations left for "would be" border jumpers.

I am all for employer prosecution. And ICE did target bunch of 7-11 locations recently. But they can do more. a lot more in terms of employer prosecution. Agreed

[dawning 212]

2 hours ago, falmaind said:

I think you are still not seeing my point (which is ok).

 

These people came here willfuly and threw themselves at our economy? Yes?

We did not ask them to do these jobs

I would rather have legal labor which would ask higher wages and I would pay higher food prices.

 

I would feel full responsibility IF I had invited these folks. Massively underpaid them. so much so that they cannot afford healthcare. Yes then I would be full of guilt.

 

Its not entirely equivalent. But in a very rude way to describe the situation is what if someone throws themselves in front of your car.. I would feel bad the person is injured but I would not have the same level of guilt if I had run into the person...

You personally didn't ask them to do these jobs, but employers in many sectors are worried they won't have enough workers with immigration issues intensifying.  This is as the job market strengthens and job-seekers are getting more picky.

 

A temporary work visa program for agriculture and other manual labor is often promoted as a business friendly solution, and I can imagine it might address a lot of the issues of exploitation and abuse that undocumented workers face.  However, politicians that campaigned on keeping Mexicans out will not be likely to support something that functional.