Why was this man arrested for giving water to migrants crossing the border?

[Boiler 45,486]

8 minutes ago, spookyturtle said:

The Open Border crew would give them water. 

I am sure they also would.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

2 hours ago, charmander said:

You neither. first question was mine. 

I countered your question with one of my own.  At least you admit that we don’t actually know how many are coming across the border that a wall would fix.  But the answer to your question is yes, a wall, regardless of how much it cost, would stem the flow.  Provided it was built correctly.   Would it be worth it?  That we won’t know for another 50 years or so.

[Dashinka 24,493]

11 hours ago, spookyturtle said:

I wouldn't help someone sneak across the border, but I wouldn't let them die in front of me over a drink of water. 

Then maybe we should build a wall to keep them from making a life or death decision?

[charmander 692]

8 hours ago, IDWAF said:

I countered your question with one of my own.  At least you admit that we don’t actually know how many are coming across the border that a wall would fix.  But the answer to your question is yes, a wall, regardless of how much it cost, would stem the flow.  Provided it was built correctly.   Would it be worth it?  That we won’t know for another 50 years or so.

No I didn't admit to anything. The links I shared earlier clearly state how they estimate their numbers. In a nutshell, they take census data to estimate total number of foreign-born population. As opposed to your assumption, these censuses do not ask people whether they are here legally or not. I thought these part was clear in those links. Once they get the total estimate, they subtract the total number of legal immigrants including LPRs and naturalized citizens which DHS tracks regularly to estimate the total number of undocumented immigrants. They then exploit the DHS entry/exit stats to distinguish between illegal border crossings and visa overstays, where they highlighted the visa overstays are worse since 2007. It is simple data analysis and statistics. I don't have any reason not to believe their numbers or methods are bogus. One of the authors of that article was the director of statistics division at INS between 86-95, I'd think he knows his stuff.

 

If we are not going to use the data we have and go with our beliefs, like you say it could very well take 50 years to learn whether a $25B wall would resolve this issue.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

37 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Then maybe we should build a wall to keep them from making a life or death decision?

Maybe we should shoot every drug dealer on sight to keep the addicts from making a life and death decision. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by spookyturtle

[Boiler 45,486]

1 hour ago, spookyturtle said:

Maybe we should shoot every drug dealer on sight to keep the addicts from making a life and death decision. 

You have been making some good points recently.

 

Perhaps there is hope.

1 hour ago, spookyturtle said:

Maybe we should shoot every drug dealer on sight to keep the addicts from making a life and death decision. 

You have been making some good points recently.

 

Perhaps there is hope.

[Boiler 45,486]

VJ gone weird

Edited January 28, 2018 by Boiler

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

4 hours ago, charmander said:

No I didn't admit to anything.

You did, actually.  You said: “Are you suggesting we are going to build a $25B wall without the knowledge of number of illegals coming thru that route?” Right.  We have no knowledge of how many walk across.

 

The links I shared earlier clearly state how they estimate their numbers. In a nutshell, they take census data to estimate total number of foreign-born population.  And I asked you how many of those surveys you have ever gotten.  

 

As opposed to your assumption, these censuses do not ask people whether they are here legally or not. I thought these part was clear in those links. My point was not that it asked if someone were illegal or not, but that someone who WAS illegal, if they were to ever get such a survey in the mail, would use it to sweep up dirt with, rather than fill it out.  Why would they volunteer to put themselves on the government’s radar? 

 

Once they get the total estimate, they subtract the total number of legal immigrants including LPRs and naturalized citizens which DHS tracks regularly to estimate the total number of undocumented immigrants. They then exploit the DHS entry/exit stats to distinguish between illegal border crossings and visa overstays, where they highlighted the visa overstays are worse since 2007.

Legal immigrants, easy to track. Not sure what you mean, to exploit entry stats... again, how would they ever be able to estimate how many illegals come over?  NOT ONE OF THEM will ever let the government, in any way, know they crossed illegally.  Visa overstays, sure.  Pretty easy.  But an illegal border walk?  No way, Jose.

 

It is simple data analysis and statistics. I don't have any reason not to believe their numbers or methods are bogus. One of the authors of that article was the director of statistics division at INS between 86-95, I'd think he knows his stuff. I don’t see how anyone who knows anything about human nature and statistics could NOT argue those numbers.  You are assuming that every single illegal family 1) Gets a census survey, and 2) fills it out and returns it.  Yes, they know the total number of legal immigrants, LPR, and what not.  But illegals?  No way.  Have you ever received a census survey?  I know I have not, ever.  Probably wouldn’t take the time to fill it out even if I did.

 

If we are not going to use the data we have and go with our beliefs, like you say it could very well take 50 years to learn whether a $25B wall would resolve this issue.

 

Directly from the FAIR US website:

 

Difficulty in Estimating the Illegal Alien Population

Estimating the size and characteristics of the illegal alien population is an inexact science. Anyone claiming to have calculated a definitive number should be looked upon skeptically. There is no central database of illegal aliens. Furthermore, the Department of Homeland Security only counts those who enter and leave in a lawful manner. Those who evade immigration authorities or sneak across the border are not counted.

 

Most available sources used for estimating the total number of illegal aliens rely on migrants to self-report whether or not they hold lawful status. Illegal aliens have a strong motive to lie when asked about their immigration status. Many, understandably, feel that disclosing their unlawful status will make them vulnerable to immigration officials. Therefore, the accuracy of these statistics is doubtful, at best. Data collected by the Census Bureau, for example, attempts to differentiate between citizens, illegal aliens and lawfully present immigrants. However, this information is, again, self-reported by survey respondents without an independent verification process. The Census Bureau does not require or ask for any kind of documentation to verify that their respondents are answering demographic questions honestly.

 

(Used bold to show they agree with what I was saying even before I googled the source).

 

Source:  https://fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/how-many-illegal-immigrants-are-in-us

 

Sorry my friend, your logic is flawed, like a beautiful chunk of Swiss cheese.  We will never know for sure how many come across the Mexican border.

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

2 hours ago, Boiler said:

VJ gone weird

What was your first clue?

[Boiler 45,486]

17 minutes ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

What was your first clue?

Your profile?

[Boiler 45,486]

23 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

 

Directly from the FAIR US website:

 

Difficulty in Estimating the Illegal Alien Population

Estimating the size and characteristics of the illegal alien population is an inexact science. Anyone claiming to have calculated a definitive number should be looked upon skeptically. There is no central database of illegal aliens. Furthermore, the Department of Homeland Security only counts those who enter and leave in a lawful manner. Those who evade immigration authorities or sneak across the border are not counted.

 

Most available sources used for estimating the total number of illegal aliens rely on migrants to self-report whether or not they hold lawful status. Illegal aliens have a strong motive to lie when asked about their immigration status. Many, understandably, feel that disclosing their unlawful status will make them vulnerable to immigration officials. Therefore, the accuracy of these statistics is doubtful, at best. Data collected by the Census Bureau, for example, attempts to differentiate between citizens, illegal aliens and lawfully present immigrants. However, this information is, again, self-reported by survey respondents without an independent verification process. The Census Bureau does not require or ask for any kind of documentation to verify that their respondents are answering demographic questions honestly.

 

(Used bold to show they agree with what I was saying even before I googled the source).

 

Source:  https://fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/how-many-illegal-immigrants-are-in-us

 

Sorry my friend, your logic is flawed, like a beautiful chunk of Swiss cheese.  We will never know for sure how many come across the Mexican border.

 

If some of the posters on here can not tell the difference what chance does the Census have

Edited January 28, 2018 by Boiler

[Dashinka 24,493]

5 hours ago, spookyturtle said:

Maybe we should shoot every drug dealer on sight to keep the addicts from making a life and death decision. 

You’re really into killing people lately.  Tell me the alternative?  Open borders with water stations every mile?

[charmander 692]

1 hour ago, IDWAF said:

 

Directly from the FAIR US website:

 

Difficulty in Estimating the Illegal Alien Population

Estimating the size and characteristics of the illegal alien population is an inexact science. Anyone claiming to have calculated a definitive number should be looked upon skeptically. There is no central database of illegal aliens. Furthermore, the Department of Homeland Security only counts those who enter and leave in a lawful manner. Those who evade immigration authorities or sneak across the border are not counted.

 

Most available sources used for estimating the total number of illegal aliens rely on migrants to self-report whether or not they hold lawful status. Illegal aliens have a strong motive to lie when asked about their immigration status. Many, understandably, feel that disclosing their unlawful status will make them vulnerable to immigration officials. Therefore, the accuracy of these statistics is doubtful, at best. Data collected by the Census Bureau, for example, attempts to differentiate between citizens, illegal aliens and lawfully present immigrants. However, this information is, again, self-reported by survey respondents without an independent verification process. The Census Bureau does not require or ask for any kind of documentation to verify that their respondents are answering demographic questions honestly.

 

(Used bold to show they agree with what I was saying even before I googled the source).

 

Source:  https://fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/how-many-illegal-immigrants-are-in-us

 

Sorry my friend, your logic is flawed, like a beautiful chunk of Swiss cheese.  We will never know for sure how many come across the Mexican border.

Estimate does not mean actual number. Very rarely you have perfect estimates. None of the links I posted claim they know the actual number, neither do I. It may be true illegal aliens have a strong motive to lie when asked about their immigration status, but just I said earlier none of the censuses used by these estimates ask that legal immigration status. Let's leave our discussion as is, I believe the studies that show visa overstays are worse than illegal border crossings since 2007 are true, and you are skeptic about that.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

29 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

You’re really into killing people lately.  Tell me the alternative?  Open borders with water stations every mile?

I'm not for open borders. The problem is US employers and a government that won't make E-Verify mandatory. If it wasn't so easy to survive here illegally, people wouldn't come. $25 billion could be spent more wisely, IMHO.

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

3 hours ago, Boiler said:

Your profile?

Didn't realize you were into making it personal.