Evidence suggests a massive scandal is brewing at the FBI

[yuna628 9,712]

14 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

How do you know the second memo is the correct memo?  My understanding is that it was written solely by staffers of minority sitting on the committee.  Btw, it is interesting to see that it was confirmed that one campaign was actually colluding with a foreign agent.  I guess Mueller is investigating the wrong candidate.

How do you know the first memo is the correct memo? (and really it is quite a nothingburger in terms of evidence of anything) The memo was written by Nunes' staffers, this confirms really nothing but their opinion. Nothing here would hold sway in a court of law. Public opinion of some people? Perhaps. Carter Page IS a foreign agent.

Edited February 2, 2018 by yuna628

[Dashinka 24,786]

Just now, bcking said:

Ya I think the better description would be that the second memo would seek to add additional information that may help clarify facts. Something like that.

 

I have to admit I did get a little laugh about the collusion bit. It glosses over some details (Did Clinton or the DNC even know they were paying for a foreign spy's information, or did they just pay Fusion GPS and knew nothing about what they did?) but it's still funny. It is likely that no one in politics is truly innocent. 

 

-----------------

 

That being said, and this is entirely my opinion and it includes many of my biases, but - 

 

I'd take a candidate colluding with a single foreign individual from a very friendly closely allied country over a candidate colluding with agents of a foreign government that, while not openly hostile, is frequently against our national interests.

 

If I had to pick one of those to investigate...I know which would I'd pick.

 

Colluding with a foreign agent is what it is.  There are not degrees there.  Sure, if Trump was colluding with a Russian agent, let's find out, but after 20 months of investigation (first by the FBI and now Mueller), there is nothing of substance.  In this case, we have substance of a campaign using a lawyer cut-out to pay a research firm to do political research, a biased foreign agent is contracted (did Marc Elias know, or did he direct FusionGPS to use Steele), and the product of that biased research is used by the DOJ for spying on American citizens via the Fisa court.  Gives me so much faith in the Federal government agencies.

[Dashinka 24,786]

11 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

How do you know the first memo is the correct memo? (and really it is quite a nothingburger in terms of evidence of anything) The memo was written by Nunes' staffers, this confirms really nothing but their opinion. Nothing here would hold sway in a court of law. Public opinion of some people? Perhaps. Carter Page IS a foreign agent.

We don't, but I did not make the assertion that a second memo was written to correct the record.  That makes the assumption that the first memo was written purely for political reasons, but it is certainly possible that the first memo was correct and contains a summary of their findings.  Personally, I think this is a big deal relative to confirming who was colluding with a foreign agent, and how a biased DOJ under the previous administration used the information for political purposes even though they knew it was political research.

[bcking 3,157]

4 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Colluding with a foreign agent is what it is.  There are not degrees there.  Sure, if Trump was colluding with a Russian agent, let's find out, but after 20 months of investigation (first by the FBI and now Mueller), there is nothing of substance.  In this case, we have substance of a campaign using a lawyer cut-out to pay a research firm to do political research, a biased foreign agent is contracted (did Marc Elias know, or did he direct FusionGPS to use Steele), and the product of that biased research is used by the DOJ for spying on American citizens via the Fisa court.  Gives me so much faith in the Federal government agencies.

Nothing made public. The Russian investigation isn't "transparent" like this memo is, remember

 

As I said before - Information may be obtained by someone who is biased, but that doesn't automatically invalidate it. If you can independently confirm some of it, it would warrant an investigation to see what else is true.

 

I've already said that I agree it looks like the FBI probably intentionally withheld information about the source of their information, and that was likely wrong given the scenario. I don't know any precedent regarding what the FBI typically tells the FISA court regarding sources, or if they typically only present the information. I agree it seems wrong because the source here is relevant, but again it may have been normal behavior and not "intentionally misleading". This may, if anything, highlight more generalized deficiencies in the FISA process depending on precedent and whether there is evidence that the withholding of information was intentional.

 

The fact is the lay public knows so little about how these processes normally work that memos like these only just create more questions, and make it easier to jump to conclusions. Not everything can be judged in a court of public opinion, because at the end of the day we aren't "peers" in this case because we have no experience with how these things typically work. 

[bcking 3,157]

5 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

We don't, but I did not make the assertion that a second memo was written to correct the record.  That makes the assumption that the first memo was written purely for political reasons, but it is certainly possible that the first memo was correct and contains a summary of their findings.  Personally, I think this is a big deal relative to confirming who was colluding with a foreign agent, and how a biased DOJ under the previous administration used the information for political purposes even though they knew it was political research.

Honest legal question:

 

Can you unknowingly collude with a foreign agent? This would apply both to Clinton and Trump. 

 

Even Clinton herself never knew they hired a former foreign spy, is she still guilty? Opposition research alone isn't against the law. Same with Trump - If there is evidence found, but no evidence that he was aware...is that collusion?

 

I don't know in either scenario.

Edited February 2, 2018 by bcking

[Dashinka 24,786]

1 minute ago, bcking said:

Honest legal question:

 

Can you unknowingly collude with a foreign agent? This would apply both to Clinton and Trump. 

 

Even Clinton herself never knew they hired a former foreign spy, is she still guilty? Opposition research alone isn't against the law. Same with Trump - If there is evidence found, but no evidence that he was aware...is that collusion?

 

I don't know in either scenario.

At the risk of being accused of deflecting by using the "H" work, I am pretty sure that Hillary will have plenty of plausible deniability.

 

[Keith & Arileidi 437]

3 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

At the risk of being accused of deflecting by using the "H" work, I am pretty sure that Hillary will have plenty of plausible deniability.

 

Why are you deflecting ?😉🤣😂😆

[bcking 3,157]

3 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

At the risk of being accused of deflecting by using the "H" work, I am pretty sure that Hillary will have plenty of plausible deniability.

 

I'd expect that even if the Russian Investigation does come up with evidence, Trump will similarly have plausible deniability. 

 

I'm just not sure how being "willfully ignorant" would hold up in court, for either one of them.

[Dashinka 24,786]

Just now, bcking said:

I'd expect that even if the Russian Investigation does come up with evidence, Trump will similarly have plausible deniability. 

 

I'm just not sure how being "willfully ignorant" would hold up in court, for either one of them.

Well, it will probably work best for Trump since the MDL has already labeled him dumb, deranged, and brain damaged, you know, 25th amendment stuff. I suppose Hillary could claim something similar based on her concussion.

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

So what we know is that a fake dossier, paid for by the democrats was used by our FBI and DOJ to obtain the rights to eavesdrop on the campaign  of a Presidential candidate, and they leaked the document to News agencies. worse than Watergate  

[Dashinka 24,786]

6 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

So what we know is that a fake dossier, paid for by the democrats was used by our FBI and DOJ to obtain the rights to eavesdrop on the campaign  of a Presidential candidate, and they leaked the document to News agencies. worse than Watergate  

Nixon would be either envious, or proud!

 

 

[yuna628 9,712]

Conservative publication calls into question terms used in this document.

 

https://www.redstate.com/patterico/2018/02/02/significant-inaccuracy-thememo-calls-credibility-question/

Edited February 2, 2018 by yuna628

[bcking 3,157]

38 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

So what we know is that a fake dossier, paid for by the democrats was used by our FBI and DOJ to obtain the rights to eavesdrop on the campaign  of a Presidential candidate, and they leaked the document to News agencies. worse than Watergate  

Based on what we know from sworn testimony - Not everything in the dossier is fake. 

 

Also - Who is "they" in your statement "they leaked the document to News agencies"? Based on the memo it seems like Steele is the one that leaked the information to the News. He isn't a "they".

[JimandChristy 1,689]

That's it? LOL!

 

This memo actually SUPPORTS the Russia Investigation. Self inflicted wound by the Trump supporters in the Republican Party.

[JimandChristy 1,689]

2 hours ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

So what we know is that a fake dossier, paid for by the democrats was used by our FBI and DOJ to obtain the rights to eavesdrop on the campaign  of a Presidential candidate, and they leaked the document to News agencies. worse than Watergate  

LOL, the memo was a desperate, partisan move by Republicans to discredit the Mueller Investigation. It has spectacularly backfired. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by JimandChristy