A family's painful split decision

[rebeccajo 14]

There's no free market confusion if the workers are legal. My fantasy discussion is based on the premise that the immigrants come here legalized, have Social Security numbers, and pay taxes.

In order to play in this scenario, one needs to wrap their brain around the concept that if our nation were willing, we COULD be more flexible regarding entry to our nation. That type of thinking requires laying down one's isolationist mindset.

I think that is a complete mischaracterization of what LisaD is saying.

She is making the argument that illegals willing to work for slave wages undercut the average wage paid to Americans. She is right. I have been reading for years about how this occurs, and people may not want to realize it because they are not being affected (yet) but it's true. She's right...it's outsourcing without the 'out'.

She is also correct that uncontrolled immigration into the United States would be an unmitigated disaster. Take for instance the problems the UK is having right now with social services such as healthcare and schools in certain areas of the country. Some services are stretched to breaking point because of the influx of (legal) migrants from new EU nations. The UK government grossly underestimated the number of migrants headed for these shores and even though over 90% of these migrants are employed and paying taxes, services are STILL struggling. The eastern European migrants are also undercutting the locals and acting as a drag on wage growth in some industries. This is a LEGAL mass migration situation, and these problems have been caused by between 600,000 and 1,000,000 migrants since 2004.

Now extrapolate that problem using the scale of America's immigration problem. Your solution is not feasible. It will not work, and luckily our elected officials are clever enough to never allow anything like what you are suggesting to become law. It would be a disaster.

Interesting.

If we talk about illegal immigrantion, the hairs on the backs of some necks raise.

If we talk about legal immigration as a solution, that is also a precursor of doom.

Is it really immigration we as Americans have a problem with? Or is it immigrants?

[homesick_american 1]

Interesting.

Here we go.

If we talk about illegal immigrantion, the hairs on the backs of some necks raise.

Yes, because enforcing the law is so creepy and draconian, it just sends chills down my spine.

If we talk about legal immigration as a solution, that is also a precursor of doom.

Uh, no. What YOU are talking about is throwing open the doors to anyone and everyone who wants to come to the United States. Are you implying that anyone who is against a 100% open door policy is somehow a racist, because that's sure what it looks like to me.

Is it really immigration we as Americans have a problem with? Or is it immigrants?

You could have just countered the point I made instead of obliquely accusing me and other people here of being racists. Must I remind you that I myself am an immigrant, and that I'm married to someone who soon will be?

I think I speak not only for myself but for several other people on this thread when I say that to accuse people who are trying like hell to get their SOs to the United States of being against immigration/immigrants is not only ludicrous, it's offensive.

[Fandango 1,439]

Interesting.

If we talk about illegal immigrantion, the hairs on the backs of some necks raise.

If we talk about legal immigration as a solution, that is also a precursor of doom.

Is it really immigration we as Americans have a problem with? Or is it immigrants?

most.ridiculous.post.ever...specially the last line...considering what kind of website this it

I'd say more, but HA pretty much nailed it. *wild applause* :thumbs: :thumbs:

[Fandango 1,439]

But I'll add this....I predicted on page one that the people who stand up get labeled racists or xenophobes. It's such a shame that that came to pass. Because no amount of logical arguing and repetitive explaining simple economics, simple logic, etc can prevent some to trot out the 'you have a problem with immigrants' Which is so insanely ridiculous I don't know whether to laugh my backside off, or actually be offended

[TracyTN 237]

Interesting.

If we talk about illegal immigrantion, the hairs on the backs of some necks raise.

If we talk about legal immigration as a solution, that is also a precursor of doom.

Is it really immigration we as Americans have a problem with? Or is it immigrants?

most.ridiculous.post.ever...specially the last line...considering what kind of website this it

I'd say more, but HA pretty much nailed it. *wild applause* :thumbs: :thumbs:

Most ridiculous post ever? Hmmm.

I guess I read the last line as posing a question about Americans in general (not specifically VJers). Nor did I feel it was stating an opinion.

I thought we were all pretty much on the same side of things here, but reading this thread almost makes me think otherwise. I thought we all wanted immigration that works, is legal and fair (among other things). Surely we all also realize how very complex the issue is, particuarly when you involve illegal immigration.

Obviously different people have different ideas about how THEY think that may best be achieved or perhaps some are still trying to figure out what they think would work the best. Reading debates about it is probably the best way to do that, so its a healthy thing.

I'm not sure I'd categorize this thread as 'healthy', though.

[LaL 418]

.

Edited May 2, 2007 by lal_brandow

[LaL 418]

22 out of 40 participants in a VJ poll want to DECREASE immigration for BOTH legal and illegal

5 want to increase

13 want to stay the same

more than 1/2 want to decrease? its an interesting outcome on this website.

[Fandango 1,439]

Interesting.

If we talk about illegal immigrantion, the hairs on the backs of some necks raise.

If we talk about legal immigration as a solution, that is also a precursor of doom.

Is it really immigration we as Americans have a problem with? Or is it immigrants?

most.ridiculous.post.ever...specially the last line...considering what kind of website this it

I'd say more, but HA pretty much nailed it. *wild applause* :thumbs: :thumbs:

Most ridiculous post ever? Hmmm.

I guess I read the last line as posing a question about Americans in general (not specifically VJers). Nor did I feel it was stating an opinion.

I thought we were all pretty much on the same side of things here, but rees,ading this thread almost makes me think otherwise. I thought we all wanted immigration that works, is legal and fair (among other things). Surely we all also realize how very complex the issue is, particuarly when you involve illegal immigration.

Obviously different people have different ideas about how THEY think that may best be achieved or perhaps some are still trying to figure out what they think would work the best. Reading debates about it is probably the best way to do that, so its a healthy thing.

I'm not sure I'd categorize this thread as 'healthy', though.

Yes, Tracy, mos ridiculous post ever. First of all, it was in response to HA's and my assertation that unlimited legal immigration would be a catastrophic thing for this country. So who exactly is this 'we Americans have a problem' she speaks of? It's obviously not her, since she wants to open the borders to everyone...so one could INFER the 'we' is pretty much 'anyone who disagrees with her open door ideals' . Well I disagree with it..so does that mean I'm anti-immigrant? Me, on a visa site with an upcoming immigrant future spouse? HA, an immigrant herself....Yes, it's the most ridiculous post ever.

It's rooted in finger pointing and emotion....it's accusatory. 'oooh our hairs raise!' 'they speak of impending doom!' which really mocks the real issues. I'm no Chicken Little, and I'm certainly not a racist or xenophobe. So let's keep the accusations to a min, shall we?

Edited May 2, 2007 by LisaD

[TracyTN 237]

Yes, Tracy, most ridiculous post ever. Well in this thread anyways. First of all, it was in response to HA's and my assertation that unlimited legal immigration would be a catastrophic thing for this country. So who exactly is this 'we Americans have a problem' she speaks of? It's obviously not her, since she wants to open the borders to everyone...so one could INFER the 'we' is pretty much 'anyone who disagrees with her plan' . Well I disagree with it...so does that mean I'm anti-immigrant? Me, on a visa site with an upcoming immigrant future spouse? Yes, it's the most ridiculous post ever.

It's rooted in finger pointing and emotion....it's accusatory. 'oooh our hairs raise!' 'they speak of impending doom!' which really mocks the real issues. I'm no Chicken Little, and I'm certainly not a racist or xenophobe. So let's keep the accusations to a min, shall we?

Interesting.

If we talk about illegal immigrantion, the hairs on the backs of some necks raise.

If we talk about legal immigration as a solution, that is also a precursor of doom.

Is it really immigration we as Americans have a problem with? Or is it immigrants?

most.ridiculous.post.ever...specially the last line...considering what kind of website this it

I'd say more, but HA pretty much nailed it. *wild applause* :thumbs: :thumbs:

Most ridiculous post ever? Hmmm.

I guess I read the last line as posing a question about Americans in general (not specifically VJers). Nor did I feel it was stating an opinion.

I thought we were all pretty much on the same side of things here, but rees,ading this thread almost makes me think otherwise. I thought we all wanted immigration that works, is legal and fair (among other things). Surely we all also realize how very complex the issue is, particuarly when you involve illegal immigration.

Obviously different people have different ideas about how THEY think that may best be achieved or perhaps some are still trying to figure out what they think would work the best. Reading debates about it is probably the best way to do that, so its a healthy thing.

I'm not sure I'd categorize this thread as 'healthy', though.

Yeah, mos ridiculous post ever. First of all, it was in response to HA's and my assertation that unlimited legal immigration would be a catastrophic thing for this country. So who exactly is this 'we Americans have a problem' she speaks of? It's obviously not her, since she wants to open the borders to everyone...so one could INFER the 'we' is pretty much 'anyone who disagrees with her plan' . Well I disagree with it...so does that mean I'm anti-immigrant? Me, on a visa site with an upcoming immigrant future spouse? HA, an immigrant herself....Yes, it's the most ridiculous post ever.

It's rooted in finger pointing and emotion....it's accusatory. 'oooh our hairs raise!' 'they speak of impending doom!' which really mocks the real issues. I'm no Chicken Little, and I'm certainly not a racist or xenophobe. So let's keep the accusations to a min, shall we?

If you say so. I don't completely agree with her idea, either, but I certainly didn't feel like she was referring to me. I suppose its open to interpretation.

I'm really not into long debates on this board just to prove myself right or to have the last word on something. I'm quite happy to throw my hands up at any point and agree to disagree to avoid a fight. Because frankly, I just don't care that much.

Edited May 2, 2007 by TracyTN

[rebeccajo 14]

I accused nobody of being racist. I simply asked a general question.

HA, I do remember you are an immigrant yourself. I recall a specific post of yours where you stated once you had even been spat on - I presume your only offense being an American, a legal immigrant to the UK. Having suffered that, I'm merely a bit startled at your reaction to my proposal (and I will grant you it's an unrealistic proposal).

Lisa, yes this is a website of individuals who are bringing immigrants to this country - through family based immigation. Some of us doing that are bringing loved ones from VWP nations. We don't have the extra hurdles placed on us of needing a visa just for a visit. Granted, we have to jump through hoops for the 'big move' but our bars aren't as high as those placed on individuals of other nations. I'm not sure we can have a clear picture of just how difficult immigration to America can really be.

[Alex+R 0]

22 out of 40 participants in a VJ poll want to DECREASE immigration for BOTH legal and illegal

5 want to increase

13 want to stay the same

more than 1/2 want to decrease? its an interesting outcome on this website.

Because of this post, I went over and looked at the poll, and the results just shocked me. 15 people want to demand English fluency before people can come here.

[Fandango 1,439]

I accused nobody of being racist. I simply asked a general question.

HA, I do remember you are an immigrant yourself. I recall a specific post of yours where you stated once you had even been spat on - I presume your only offense being an American, a legal immigrant to the UK. Having suffered that, I'm merely a bit startled at your reaction to my proposal (and I will grant you it's an unrealistic proposal).

Lisa, yes this is a website of individuals who are bringing immigrants to this country - through family based immigation. Some of us doing that are bringing loved ones from VWP nations. We don't have the extra hurdles placed on us of needing a visa just for a visit. Granted, we have to jump through hoops for the 'big move' but our bars aren't as high as those placed on individuals of other nations. I'm not sure we can have a clear picture of just how difficult immigration to America can really be.

I think you inferred that people who don't agree with the 'open the door and come on in!' ideal of yours is anti-immigration. That's the way it read to me. Sure you didn't come out with the word 'racist'....but you did come out with

'if we talk of illegals, hairs raise' <---fair enough...and with good reason imo.

'if we talk of legal immigration as a solution, people talk of doom!' <---is this your way of minimizing the arguments against you ideal by making it out to be nothing more than some sort of knee-jerk reaction not based in logic? And what solution is that? It solves illegal immigration by making everyone legal? Well we could solve the problem of muder by legalizing that too. Yes, I'm being dramatic...only to prove a point here. While it may solve the illegality of it, it opens up an new can of worms the likes of which I FEEL would be even worse than the problem we have now. You never did explain your whole 'sink or swim on their own' angle. If they sink...do we ignore them? Or do we take care of them by giving them shelter, food, etc? I'm really interested in hearing you exxpanding your thought on this.

and finally..

'Is it really immigration we as Americans have a problem with? Or is it immigrants?' <-- I'd like to know what you meant by that if that wasn't a passive-aggressive dig. You're an American, so do you have a problem with immigration or immigrants themselves?

[rebeccajo 14]

22 out of 40 participants in a VJ poll want to DECREASE immigration for BOTH legal and illegal

5 want to increase

13 want to stay the same

more than 1/2 want to decrease? its an interesting outcome on this website.

Because of this post, I went over and looked at the poll, and the results just shocked me. 15 people want to demand English fluency before people can come here.

Strange, isn't it?

You'd think we'd be a bit sympathetic.

You know, in the UK, you can no longer just visit your sweetie and get married on a whim. They won't issue a marriage license when one of the parties isn't a citizen. You must have a valid spousal or fiance visa.

What's odd about this? In my opinion, rather than addressing the present UK immigration policy (which IS open door) the government has placed a hammer down on families.

Sometimes when citizens seek a solution to a 'problem' that government doesn't always give the popular answer. You know, kind of like 'being careful what you ask for'.

It's highly possible that some of the immigration legislation that will be passed this fall could adversely affect families. I wonder how that could affect our community.

[rebeccajo 14]

I accused nobody of being racist. I simply asked a general question.

HA, I do remember you are an immigrant yourself. I recall a specific post of yours where you stated once you had even been spat on - I presume your only offense being an American, a legal immigrant to the UK. Having suffered that, I'm merely a bit startled at your reaction to my proposal (and I will grant you it's an unrealistic proposal).

Lisa, yes this is a website of individuals who are bringing immigrants to this country - through family based immigation. Some of us doing that are bringing loved ones from VWP nations. We don't have the extra hurdles placed on us of needing a visa just for a visit. Granted, we have to jump through hoops for the 'big move' but our bars aren't as high as those placed on individuals of other nations. I'm not sure we can have a clear picture of just how difficult immigration to America can really be.

I think you inferred that people who don't agree with the 'open the door and come on in!' ideal of yours is anti-immigration. That's the way it read to me. Sure you didn't come out with the word 'racist'....but you did come out with

'if we talk of illegals, hairs raise' <---fair enough...and with good reason imo.

'if we talk of legal immigration as a solution, people talk of doom!' <---is this your way of minimizing the arguments against you ideal by making it out to be nothing more than some sort of knee-jerk reaction not based in logic? And what solution is that? It solves illegal immigration by making everyone legal? Well we could solve the problem of muder by legalizing that too. Yes, I'm being dramatic...only to prove a point here. While it may solve the illegality of it, it opens up an new can of worms the likes of which I FEEL would be even worse than the problem we have now. You never did explain your whole 'sink or swim on their own' angle. If they sink...do we ignore them? Or do we take care of them by giving them shelter, food, etc? I'm really interested in hearing you exxpanding your thought on this.

and finally..

'Is it really immigration we as Americans have a problem with? Or is it immigrants?' <-- I'd like to know what you meant by that if that wasn't a passive-aggressive dig. You're an American, so do you have a problem with immigration or immigrants themselves?

Sink or swim Lisa. They will go home. It might take time but that's the way it's always worked. It's simple.

Regarding what I meant - I've explained that enough to you. You freely state your opinions in this community all the time, all the while stating your right to do so even if it's a manner people don't like. You don't like the way I stated mine. Deal with it.

[Fandango 1,439]

I think you inferred that people who don't agree with the 'open the door and come on in!' ideal of yours is anti-immigration. That's the way it read to me. Sure you didn't come out with the word 'racist'....but you did come out with

'if we talk of illegals, hairs raise' <---fair enough...and with good reason imo.

'if we talk of legal immigration as a solution, people talk of doom!' <---is this your way of minimizing the arguments against you ideal by making it out to be nothing more than some sort of knee-jerk reaction not based in logic? And what solution is that? It solves illegal immigration by making everyone legal? Well we could solve the problem of muder by legalizing that too. Yes, I'm being dramatic...only to prove a point here. While it may solve the illegality of it, it opens up an new can of worms the likes of which I FEEL would be even worse than the problem we have now. You never did explain your whole 'sink or swim on their own' angle. If they sink...do we ignore them? Or do we take care of them by giving them shelter, food, etc? I'm really interested in hearing you exxpanding your thought on this.

and finally..

'Is it really immigration we as Americans have a problem with? Or is it immigrants?' <-- I'd like to know what you meant by that if that wasn't a passive-aggressive dig. You're an American, so do you have a problem with immigration or immigrants themselves?

Sink or swim Lisa. They will go home. It might take time but that's the way it's always worked. It's simple.

Regarding what I meant - I've explained that enough to you. You freely state your opinions in this community all the time, all the while stating your right to do so even if it's a manner people don't like. You don't like the way I stated mine. Deal with it.

Who's paying for their ticket? Who's going to force them on the plane? Or will they jump on their unicorns and magically portal home?

BTW...I don't mind you stating your opinion...I really have no problem with that at all...but if you're going to infer I have a problem with legal immigrants, at least have the b@lls to just outright say so, instead of being PA and then saying 'oh I didn't accuse anyone of anything' lol

THAT'S what my problem is.

Edited May 2, 2007 by LisaD