A family's painful split decision

[rebeccajo 14]

You know, I guess all I'm saying is that you can believe the family in the article was handled correctly (by being deported) and still say "Man, that sucks for their kids." instead of "Hurray, ten-year-ban mo-fo's throw them in jail to be buggered by apes!" I read the article and thought, "Well, that's about what you'd expect if you get caught, hope their kids manage to graduate high school in the U.S."

We can't have unrestricted immigration; as one of my friends who immigrated from Tehran when he was small said: "Half of Iran would be here tomorrow." It's a lot easier to travel and get plane tickets than it used to be. But I do think that many of the problems with Mexico, for example, stem from NAFTA, and that it's going to be hard to solve the illegal immigration problem without a change in economic policy towards Mexico, and it would be nice if there were an actual visa class for some non-traditionally skilled workers. It's not like there *was* a path for people to come here legally and they skipped it. (I think any plan that just involves building a fence but doesn't also provide a legal path is doomed to failure. Demand is too high.)

From looking around my neighborhood, which is heavily Hispanic, many illegals would even have official sponsors were there a path, so the usual I-864 restrictions could apply. The pattern around here is mostly like this: Hispanic business owner entered legally, his wife entered legally, their kids were born here, and their aunts and uncles are probably overstays or EWIs. And other than immigration, they're law-abiding, and look like the typical tableau of immigrant families. It would be right to deport some of them, legally, but it's hard to see how that would be worth crowing about.

P.S. 25% of illegals are non-Hispanic. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that means at least a quarter aren't EWI, just some form of overstay. That's not just anecdote. Can't jump a fence from Ireland, after all.

Caladan, that's the 'more realistic' version of what I would like to see. And even that is probably unrealistic in today's political climate.

[John & Annie 0]

I gotta throw in my two cents worth of knowledge here.

I used to run a medium sized Landscape Company in Southern CA. We had about 600 non union field employees. When all of the immigration issues really started coming to a head again, we took it seriously. Not knowing, and not being allowed to check actual legal status of our staff, we assumed 30% of our workforce was using some kind of falsified document. So we started looking for new people.

I should also add that our unskilled laborers started at $7.50 an hour. Our foreman were making up to 50,000 per year(btw, all of our foreman started as laborers). That should give you the range we paid our staff.

We did alot of advertising and recruiting. We got two people who were willing to learn the business and grow.

All of that to come to get to my conclusion;

We would of been willing to pay for the visas to bring people in, but the number of visas is not sufficient. My solution would be to totally crack down on employers but give enough visas to allow employers to get people who will actually work.

This whole debate would go away if there were enough visas, that is why I am going to meet with a couple of Congressional Reps and my Senators and put forth my suggestions. The Legislative bodies could easily and quietly increase the number of visas while encouraging law enforcement to do there job. This would collectively allow both parties a win/win situation.

[homesick_american 1]

I gotta throw in my two cents worth of knowledge here.

I used to run a medium sized Landscape Company in Southern CA. We had about 600 non union field employees. When all of the immigration issues really started coming to a head again, we took it seriously. Not knowing, and not being allowed to check actual legal status of our staff, we assumed 30% of our workforce was using some kind of falsified document. So we started looking for new people.

I should also add that our unskilled laborers started at $7.50 an hour. Our foreman were making up to 50,000 per year(btw, all of our foreman started as laborers). That should give you the range we paid our staff.

We did alot of advertising and recruiting. We got two people who were willing to learn the business and grow.

All of that to come to get to my conclusion;

We would of been willing to pay for the visas to bring people in, but the number of visas is not sufficient. My solution would be to totally crack down on employers but give enough visas to allow employers to get people who will actually work.

This whole debate would go away if there were enough visas, that is why I am going to meet with a couple of Congressional Reps and my Senators and put forth my suggestions. The Legislative bodies could easily and quietly increase the number of visas while encouraging law enforcement to do there job. This would collectively allow both parties a win/win situation.

Or you could just increase the amount of money you're willing to pay them; if you're trying to hire people but aren't getting enough interest at the advertised rate, it's probably because it's too low.

I do not believe we should have a guest worker program just so companies can get (exploit) cheap labor.

[Fandango 1,439]

*winks*

What would you say if I told you I am seriously putting it forth? Don't you trust the laws of economics to let things work? You don't believe that the nation and system you think is so great can eventually absorb the migration of more legal taxpayers?

The problems we have with healthcare have nothing to do with the largely youthful migrant population. That's another kettle of fish.

Roads, police, school, jails, firefighters - all that is paid for with taxes. Isn't part of the argument against illegal immigrants that they don't pay their fair share? So let them enter the nation legally, work legally, and pay into the pot. The economic system won't work if they do?

As far as people coming to America - if they want to come, they will find a way. The previous waves of immigrants who (as you mentioned) contributed to this nation came from much further away than south of us. How do you think the Chinese railroad workers got here? They didn't spread wings and fly. Neither did the Italians, Germans and Irish who came for decades. The bulk of the current immigrant population are able to walk over a border. History tells me that's more a sociological phenomen than a geographic one.

People move around the world. It's been happening since the dawn of time. It's not going to stop now because lawmakers decide to build either a physical fence or draw a mental isolationist one. America is a great enough nation to allow the basic principles of economics to work. That is if it doesn't wish to hide behind the fear of 'outsiders' who intend to do it harm.

If you said you were 'seriously putting it forth' I'd tell you to get your head out of the clouds because it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You say 'oh let em sink or swim'...well, where the hell they gonna sink when unemployment rate skyrockets and no one has jobs? Who's going to take care of them then, eh? Hey yeah, let's just let everyone in...you don't need a visa...come on just come in...and do what? Where would they live? Where they gonna sleep?

Because everyone's visa journey here...well the immigrants bit...those went just as planned eh? Smooth as silk? Every single adjustment was just peachy with no issues getting great paying jobs, getting healthcare, etc....right? And those are people who have the security of having a USC spouse, roof over their heads and all that jazz. Hey, when you talk to the dude who's handing out all these great, high payingjobs, tell him I might be interested too:P

And if you don't think geography has owt to do with illegal immigration...well, hah, that astounds me. But if that's what you believe, hey...more power to ya....I think you should start by inviting a family of illegals to live with you. Money where your mouth is and all that.

Gotta run to a meeting, back later!

I didn't say let people in without a visa, now did I?

I didn't say geography has nothing to do with illegal immigration. I said if people want to find a way here bad enough, they will regardless of geography.

If you want to be insulting, try reading thoroughly rather than twisting the meaning.

I meant 'specific' visa as such to reference the system we have now...sponsors, different categories with qualifications for each, etc. From what I gathered from your post, you were saying rearrange the whole system...and there would be no req's as such like the ones that are in place now. If I was wrong with that, then my bad! Don't get me wrong, I do believe the system is flawed as it is, but I'd much prefer the system we got now to 'hey you wanna come? fill out these papers and start packing!' The bit of mine you put in red was an oversimplification on my part...but that's what I meant.

You suggested previously that we let em all come over and 'sink or swim' on their own...which I find absolutely crazy. Because if there are no sponsors, (and possibly no $$$ reqs...dunno if that's in your plan too)....and no quals as far as specific worker-type visas and whatnot....well that's setting LOTS of ppl up to fail. Yeah we'll do a namecheck, you can pay a small fee...but then come over and sort yourself a job and a house and all that good stuff...and if you fail, oh well. So we'd either have a substantially large indigent/homeless problem, or we'd be draining what's left of social programs dry.

But I completely disagree with 'if they want to come here they will find a way'. There are countries who aren't on our VWP, nor are they close enough for illegal immigration to even be a possibility. I don't agree with 'it's a sociological one more than a georgraphical one'. Yes, history is one thing...but you're citing immigration scenarios which happened in a time when there wasn't some 300 odd million people already here. Yes, Italians and Chinese and all nationality of people found their way here. But it was in a much different time, and the circumstances in which we live present day affect immigration a great deal.

And the last bit of mine in red..the whole 'money where your mouth is'...well I see this whole 'resident of the world' notion to be a ridiculous one. And if you wanna play fast and loose with resources which includes space & money...then try it for yourself before volunteering that the country do it.

I don't want to be insulting...if you want to take it that way, that's entirely your choice. I'm just callin it as I see it.

[John & Annie 0]

I gotta throw in my two cents worth of knowledge here.

I used to run a medium sized Landscape Company in Southern CA. We had about 600 non union field employees. When all of the immigration issues really started coming to a head again, we took it seriously. Not knowing, and not being allowed to check actual legal status of our staff, we assumed 30% of our workforce was using some kind of falsified document. So we started looking for new people.

I should also add that our unskilled laborers started at $7.50 an hour. Our foreman were making up to 50,000 per year(btw, all of our foreman started as laborers). That should give you the range we paid our staff.

We did alot of advertising and recruiting. We got two people who were willing to learn the business and grow.

All of that to come to get to my conclusion;

We would of been willing to pay for the visas to bring people in, but the number of visas is not sufficient. My solution would be to totally crack down on employers but give enough visas to allow employers to get people who will actually work.

This whole debate would go away if there were enough visas, that is why I am going to meet with a couple of Congressional Reps and my Senators and put forth my suggestions. The Legislative bodies could easily and quietly increase the number of visas while encouraging law enforcement to do there job. This would collectively allow both parties a win/win situation.

Or you could just increase the amount of money you're willing to pay them; if you're trying to hire people but aren't getting enough interest at the advertised rate, it's probably because it's too low.

I do not believe we should have a guest worker program just so companies can get (exploit) cheap labor.

We did, we started people at 10-12 p hour to be ditch diggers and the guys who made less money worked harder, that is why out of the 95 people we hired only two worked out.

There is also a profit ratio to be figured in here as well. We were only being paid $17.00 per hour for our laborers, so lets average the new laborers we hired. Average Income was $11.00 per hour. Plus Taxes and workers comp which brought our cost to $15.40 per hour. That left $1.60 per hour for liability insurance, rent, vehicles, tools, etc, etc. I think we figured the total profit per that batch of employees was about $.20 per hour.

So if we charged our client more money, they would just increase your costs, most of our work was with home builders. We tried raising our prices and they wouldn't go for it.

So the question really comes down to if America wants to pay more for homes. I think the current recession kinda of answers that question.

[Alex+R 0]

But I completely disagree with 'if they want to come here they will find a way'. There are countries who aren't on our VWP, nor are they close enough for illegal immigration to even be a possibility. I don't agree with 'it's a sociological one more than a georgraphical one'. Yes, history is one thing...but you're citing immigration scenarios which happened in a time when there wasn't some 300 odd million people already here. Yes, Italians and Chinese and all nationality of people found their way here. But it was in a much different time, and the circumstances in which we live present day affect immigration a great deal.

And the last bit of mine in red..the whole 'money where your mouth is'...well I see this whole 'resident of the world' notion to be a ridiculous one. And if you wanna play fast and loose with resources which includes space & money...then try it for yourself before volunteering that the country do it.

Lisa, in all fairness, RebeccaJo makes a good point that your faith in the free market does not jibe with your fear of what you assume illegal immigrants are doing to the economy. I would really like to better understand how you justify this.

Side note: 1/3 of illegal immigrants came on tourist visas. How many tourist visas do you think Mexico and Guatemala are giving out to people who become illegal immigrants? My guess is that the number is very very very low, because in those countries it is virtually impossible to secure that kind of visa unless you are both wealthy and going for a very specific purpose. People wealthy in Mexico have little use for becoming impoverished dishwashers here. Consider that, based on this as well as a host of other factors, blaming Mexico is not going to solve the problem.

[Tim and Bethanie 1]

I feel sorry for the children involved, but I have no sympathy what so ever for the parents. They made a choice many years ago. They hid and ran to avoid the consequences of their choice, so all I can say is that it was long over due and to bad it doesn't happen more often.

These illegals may not be committing horrendous crimes, but they are draining our systems dry. Our small town is in the process of putting up one more school this will be the fourth in two years. The schools have become necessary because of the mass increase in population of illegal immigrants! Guess who is paying for this?!? The illegal immigrants for the most part aren't paying a lick of tax because they are paid by farmers who typically don't bother. Our court system is bogged down every week with one hispanic name after another, that never show up for court.

My thought is that our town was way to hospitable from the get go and now "we have problems with the illegal immigrant population". Maybe the community leaders should push some sort of laws in to place that would have all of them move to everyone elses town that doesn't seem to think this is a problem.

Do I mind if an illegal family (of 25) is living next door? No I sure don't they for the most part are decent people trying to make a life for themselves. What I do mind however is the money they are taking from the families and children who are legal residents and citizens of this country!

Blaaaa quite frankly I am sick of it all. Financially if we could move at this moment I would. I wasn't born and raised in Mexico and yet I feel like I am living there. My town has went from a beautiful little place sitting right in the middle of thoroughbred country, to a gawdy pinata, sombrero, phone card advert, bright orange and pink strung town as though someone vomitted fiesta on every street corner! It is a culture that I don't like shoved in my face and that I do not find attractive whatsoever. It has become this way because there is no authority around that can legally do a damn thing about it, and they know this and obvioulsy abuse it! If they are not law breakers why are they hiding?

If we started handing out visas to every illegal immigrant we are opening a can of worms, the entire third world population would then want to jump on the band wagon and that would be an economic disaster! Small town U.S.A is already struggling due to the flood of illegals into their communities..........again because no one is there to stop it.

[Fandango 1,439]

But I completely disagree with 'if they want to come here they will find a way'. There are countries who aren't on our VWP, nor are they close enough for illegal immigration to even be a possibility. I don't agree with 'it's a sociological one more than a georgraphical one'. Yes, history is one thing...but you're citing immigration scenarios which happened in a time when there wasn't some 300 odd million people already here. Yes, Italians and Chinese and all nationality of people found their way here. But it was in a much different time, and the circumstances in which we live present day affect immigration a great deal.

And the last bit of mine in red..the whole 'money where your mouth is'...well I see this whole 'resident of the world' notion to be a ridiculous one. And if you wanna play fast and loose with resources which includes space & money...then try it for yourself before volunteering that the country do it.

Lisa, in all fairness, RebeccaJo makes a good point that your faith in the free market does not jibe with your fear of what you assume illegal immigrants are doing to the economy. I would really like to better understand how you justify this.

Side note: 1/3 of illegal immigrants came on tourist visas. How many tourist visas do you think Mexico and Guatemala are giving out to people who become illegal immigrants? My guess is that the number is very very very low, because in those countries it is virtually impossible to secure that kind of visa unless you are both wealthy and going for a very specific purpose. People wealthy in Mexico have little use for becoming impoverished dishwashers here. Consider that, based on this as well as a host of other factors, blaming Mexico is not going to solve the problem.

Hiring illegals in this country is like outsourcing, but without the 'out'

There is a fair mkt value of every job....illegals undercut that. That much is clear, because if they're not doing the jobs for less money, companies wouldn't take the risk by hiring them. Right? Less revenue generated via taxes...whether the illegal is witholding for God knows how many dependents (wouldnt' that be logical, Alex? Wouldn't it just be common sense to withhold for a higher amt of dependents if they have forged papers and will never see a lawful refund?) and less tax revenue collected by the employer who pays off the books. Remember, employers pay taxes based on the amt of pay as well.

Let alone the out of work American who is now collecting unemployment because he's been replaced by someone too scared & fearful to ask for more money.

Where is the confusion here? That is no free market, Alex.

Edited May 1, 2007 by LisaD

[rebeccajo 14]

There's no free market confusion if the workers are legal. My fantasy discussion is based on the premise that the immigrants come here legalized, have Social Security numbers, and pay taxes.

In order to play in this scenario, one needs to wrap their brain around the concept that if our nation were willing, we COULD be more flexible regarding entry to our nation. That type of thinking requires laying down one's isolationist mindset.

[Otto 83]

There's no free market confusion if the workers are legal. My fantasy discussion is based on the premise that the immigrants come here legalized, have Social Security numbers, and pay taxes.

In order to play in this scenario, one needs to wrap their brain around the concept that if our nation were willing, we COULD be more flexible regarding entry to our nation. That type of thinking requires laying down one's isolationist mindset.

In this fantasy scenario/discussion:

• Did you assume most of these illegals had immigration intent?
  
• And what role did foreign governments play in this scenario?
  

[rebeccajo 14]

There's no free market confusion if the workers are legal. My fantasy discussion is based on the premise that the immigrants come here legalized, have Social Security numbers, and pay taxes.

In order to play in this scenario, one needs to wrap their brain around the concept that if our nation were willing, we COULD be more flexible regarding entry to our nation. That type of thinking requires laying down one's isolationist mindset.

In this fantasy scenario/discussion:

• Did you assume most of these illegals had immigration intent?
  
• And what role did foreign governments play in this scenario?
  

No.

My scenario speaks of legal immigration. Not illegal. There's a big difference.

Foreign governments have nothing to do with other internal matters of our government (such as taxation). Immigration is an internal matter as the immigrants will be living here. Would you punish the people of a nation because of our perspective of their government? Even in wartime, we are a more gracious conqueror than that.

Edited May 2, 2007 by rebeccajo

[Fandango 1,439]

There's no free market confusion if the workers are legal. My fantasy discussion is based on the premise that the immigrants come here legalized, have Social Security numbers, and pay taxes.

In order to play in this scenario, one needs to wrap their brain around the concept that if our nation were willing, we COULD be more flexible regarding entry to our nation. That type of thinking requires laying down one's isolationist mindset.

It's realism, not isolationalism. Fock it...if feeling we should BE CONCERNED about our own country makes me an isolationist, then gimme that badge and I'll wear it with pride.

However, being as I'm obviously pro limited, legal immigration, the connotation makes no sense

[rebeccajo 14]

It's just a scenario, Lisa.

You know....calling it as I see it.

[homesick_american 1]

We did, we started people at 10-12 p hour to be ditch diggers and the guys who made less money worked harder, that is why out of the 95 people we hired only two worked out.

There is also a profit ratio to be figured in here as well. We were only being paid $17.00 per hour for our laborers, so lets average the new laborers we hired. Average Income was $11.00 per hour. Plus Taxes and workers comp which brought our cost to $15.40 per hour. That left $1.60 per hour for liability insurance, rent, vehicles, tools, etc, etc. I think we figured the total profit per that batch of employees was about $.20 per hour.

So if we charged our client more money, they would just increase your costs, most of our work was with home builders. We tried raising our prices and they wouldn't go for it.

So the question really comes down to if America wants to pay more for homes. I think the current recession kinda of answers that question.

I'd rather pay a couple thousand more for a house built by Americans than less for one built by illegals. Unlike many Americans I am, in fact, ready to put my money where my mouth is.

[homesick_american 1]

There's no free market confusion if the workers are legal. My fantasy discussion is based on the premise that the immigrants come here legalized, have Social Security numbers, and pay taxes.

In order to play in this scenario, one needs to wrap their brain around the concept that if our nation were willing, we COULD be more flexible regarding entry to our nation. That type of thinking requires laying down one's isolationist mindset.

I think that is a complete mischaracterization of what LisaD is saying.

She is making the argument that illegals willing to work for slave wages undercut the average wage paid to Americans. She is right. I have been reading for years about how this occurs, and people may not want to realize it because they are not being affected (yet) but it's true. She's right...it's outsourcing without the 'out'.

She is also correct that uncontrolled immigration into the United States would be an unmitigated disaster. Take for instance the problems the UK is having right now with social services such as healthcare and schools in certain areas of the country. Some services are stretched to breaking point because of the influx of (legal) migrants from new EU nations. The UK government grossly underestimated the number of migrants headed for these shores and even though over 90% of these migrants are employed and paying taxes, services are STILL struggling. The eastern European migrants are also undercutting the locals and acting as a drag on wage growth in some industries. This is a LEGAL mass migration situation, and these problems have been caused by between 600,000 and 1,000,000 migrants since 2004.

Now extrapolate that problem using the scale of America's immigration problem. Your solution is not feasible. It will not work, and luckily our elected officials are clever enough to never allow anything like what you are suggesting to become law. It would be a disaster.