A family's painful split decision

[Fandango 1,439]

Actually, I have a perfect solution. The government needs to get planes overhead and just throw money out the hatch all across the USA

[Niels Bohr 72]

Actually, I have a perfect solution. The government needs to get planes overhead and just throw money out the hatch all across the USA

LOL

[kitkat1 5]

But to say that illegals aren't a drain on our system is something that I will never agree with

I guess I don't have enough knowledge of how illegals drain our system to really understand it.

I can provide one example of an admittedly unusual case. This couple were brought into the country illegally as children by their parents. They never knew life in their country (Guatemela). When their respective parents died they had no home or family to go back to in Guatemala so they stayed in the US. I don't know where/how they lived after that, if they went to school, worked, paid taxes, etc. Fast forward a few years -- they have worked for 9 years for an employer who pays them a very decent wage and constantly works to improve the skills and training of his employees so they can move up into better roles (The owner hired me as an ESL teacher to provide classes for his employees, so they could master the language and get ahead in his company).

The owner may or may not know if these employees are using false papers and may or may not be turning a blind eye. I don't know enough about him to know if he is realizes the situtation or if he would do anything about it if he did. I assume as long as he can cover himself when it comes to proving that he was shown the necessary work authorization documents, he's not in a lot of trouble. Or maybe he just doesn't care. He has all kinds of people working for him and works very hard to make it a happy, productive workplace. He provides a few extra perks for all employees, throws big parties twice a year and makes every one feel very valued, no matter their job or their level.

The illegal workers know that they are very lucky to have this situation, they live in fear everyday and they are very careful in their everyday lifes. While they qualify for health insuance, they are mostly reluctant to use it unless there is an emergency (presumably for fear of their status being discovered). The own a home - yes illegals are allowed to purchase property. They make their mortgage payments. They pay city taxes for the school district where there children go to school. They pay state and federal income taxes using their ITTN numbers. (I think its safe to assume they will never see any of the SSN they contribute).

They are hard workers, in a job that was posted all of the place and no one wanted. The owner was grateful when he found these two who were so wiling to learn and work hard. It seems to have worked out quite well - they've been there for 9 years.

In a real-life scenario like this, I just don't see all the harm.

[Fandango 1,439]

You answered your own question tho....

But to say that illegals aren't a drain on our system is something that I will never agree with

I guess I don't have enough knowledge of how illegals drain our system to really understand it.

I can provide one example of an admittedly unusual case. This couple were brought into the country illegally as children by their parents. They never knew life in their country (Guatemela). When their respective parents died they had no home or family to go back to in Guatemala so they stayed in the US. I don't know where/how they lived after that, if they went to school, worked, paid taxes, etc. Fast forward a few years -- they have worked for 9 years for an employer who pays them a very decent wage and constantly works to improve the skills and training of his employees so they can move up into better roles (The owner hired me as an ESL teacher to provide classes for his employees, so they could master the language and get ahead in his company).

The owner may or may not know if these employees are using false papers and may or may not be turning a blind eye. I don't know enough about him to know if he is realizes the situtation or if he would do anything about it if he did. I assume as long as he can cover himself when it comes to proving that he was shown the necessary work authorization documents, he's not in a lot of trouble. Or maybe he just doesn't care. He has all kinds of people working for him and works very hard to make it a happy, productive workplace. He provides a few extra perks for all employees, throws big parties twice a year and makes every one feel very valued, no matter their job or their level.

The illegal workers know that they are very lucky to have this situation, they live in fear everyday and they are very careful in their everyday lifes. While they qualify for health insuance, they are mostly reluctant to use it unless there is an emergency (presumably for fear of their status being discovered). The own a home - yes illegals are allowed to purchase property. They make their mortgage payments. They pay city taxes for the school district where there children go to school. They pay state and federal income taxes using their ITTN numbers. (I think its safe to assume they will never see any of the SSN they contribute).

They are hard workers, in a job that was posted all of the place and no one wanted. The owner was grateful when he found these two who were so wiling to learn and work hard. It seems to have worked out quite well - they've been there for 9 years.

In a real-life scenario like this, I just don't see all the harm.

[kitkat1 5]

You answered your own question tho....

Why? What about their situation shows how illegals drain the system?

I did indicate that it was a bit unusual, but there are many many more stories just like theirs and I can't see how it's hurting our economy. And that's part of my point - everyone has an individual story. And I don't mean that each has their own individual excuse that will be sufficient for everyone about why they did/are doing what they do. I just think it illustrates that there are a variety of different situations for a variety of different reasons. And they aren't all bad people or criminals. Often there are extenuating circumstances that provide some insight into why someone would chose to put themselves in a situation that makes them deportable. In their case, maybe I'm really missing something or am blinded by the fact that I know them personally, but I just dont see how they are hurting anyone. And I don't see how a visa overstayer is a criminal, especially if he overstayed due to extenuating circumstances. I'm not disputing that they all need to go through the process to get themselves legal and that it's necessary, it's just hard to take all of the bashing without recognizing that these are individual people. It's late, I'm tired and I have a feeling I'm expressing myself all that well tonight but I hope you see my point in here somewhere.

[mawilson 2,133]

Oh really? So their kids don't go to school that we pay for?

Their kids are U.S. citizens, no?

[homesick_american 1]

"And let's leave Girona out of this; this has nothing to do with her and her situation, and I resent people implying that I think her son is a criminal or that he deserves to be deported. I'm furious that people would try to make it look like I said ANYTHING like that."

I know you don't think my son is a criminal and I didn't mean to "sound" as if I was being a b*tch when I said "look at my profile". I was just trying to point out that information about most of us on this board is contained in their profile, somewhere. If you find it easier to ask, that's fine with me.

No, you've been fine.

My reasons for not feeling sympathetic for people who intentionally break the law to enter this country is because there are so many that get "scr*wed" by the system, that have done nothing illegal.

I entered the US, back in 2002, and married my husband who is a USC. He has the patience of a Saint, let me tell you! I entered with my daughter and my son "followed to join" within the one year, as he is entitled to do. When he got here he filed for Adjustment of Status to become a LPR. 10 months later they scheduled his interview - during this time he turned 21. The USCIS caseworker then told us "We have a problem. He is no longer entitled to become a permanent resident because he has to be under 21 to be eligible"! The problem is that they have not been able to show us where in the statute (INA) it says that - because it doesn't! The CSPA was enacted in 2002 to "protect" kids in this position from aging-out by freezing their age at the time of APPLICATION. But the K-2 was not included in the CSPA. We feel this was not an oversight, but that the K-2 didn't need it's protection, since they don't age-out and their age to be considered for benefit is when they file, but the USCIS are saying they don't see it like that.

To add salt to the wound, there are K-2 applicants who didn't file for adjudication until after they turned 21 and they are now LPR's, some even citizens by now. There are others who filed when they were under 21 and didn't get adjudicated until they turned 21, but they get their green cards.

It is a hard pill for me to swallow, when someone who deliberately breaks the law to enter this country is afforded sympathy from the media and congressional representatives, but someone who hasn't done anything wrong is offered no sympathy at all. It's not so much the sympathy itself, but the fact that the sympathy shown actually gets benefits awarded in the end. If nobody is sympathetic to the plight of K-2's in this situation then nothing will be done. The "illegals" will be granted benefit to stay and those that followed all the rules will be deported.

I will leave it here. I am sure everyone is sick of hearing my story. I'll let you all know what happens when the date is fixed for my son's Removal Hearing. We should have a date in the mail any day now.

I agree with you; I don't feel sorry for people who intentionally break the law. In your son's case I don't think he's done anything wrong. The government is screwing him and I really hope it gets sorted out.

[homesick_american 1]

I don't think you will find anyone in this community who 'favor' immigration by means other than legal channels.

What I do think you will find are individuals who recognize that our overburdened, expensive, and tedious immigration system only lends itself to desperate means of desperate individuals. It causes confusion amongst those who are less literate. It causes people who have trod what they thought was a legal path to sometimes 'fall through cracks' without knowing it. I really cannot fathom how anyone who has spent any length of time reading about immigration can conclude anything other than the process is frequently overwhelming, technologically archaic, and mind-numbingly slow. In short, the system isn't user-friendly.

The issue, in my opinion, cannot be summed up with a case of patriot breast-beating about how our country is being taken advantage of. As with many issues, there are more layers than meet the eye.

There is a difference between someone who tries to do things the legal way and gets screwed, like Girona's son, and someone who swims across the Rio Grande and jumps over a fence. Girona's son's situation sucks, and I feel sorry for him. I don't feel sorry for fence-jumpers, castaways, false asylum claimants, people smuggled in via container ships, etc. when they get deported. They're breaking the law and they deserve to be deported.

I don't see how I can make myself any clearer; I am getting tired of people putting words in my mouth.

[rebeccajo 14]

I don't think you will find anyone in this community who 'favor' immigration by means other than legal channels.

What I do think you will find are individuals who recognize that our overburdened, expensive, and tedious immigration system only lends itself to desperate means of desperate individuals. It causes confusion amongst those who are less literate. It causes people who have trod what they thought was a legal path to sometimes 'fall through cracks' without knowing it. I really cannot fathom how anyone who has spent any length of time reading about immigration can conclude anything other than the process is frequently overwhelming, technologically archaic, and mind-numbingly slow. In short, the system isn't user-friendly.

The issue, in my opinion, cannot be summed up with a case of patriot breast-beating about how our country is being taken advantage of. As with many issues, there are more layers than meet the eye.

Well hell, if that's the case, what about all those underpriviledged people who are neither close in proximity or have the cash or means to get here? What about them? Don't you care how desperate they are Becs?

I don't believe I said a thing about 'caring' for one group of individuals over another. I said the system is unfriendly and difficult to traverse to anyone who desires to come here.

What I would like to see happen with immigration will never come to pass. I would love to see the laws rewritten so that if you want to come to America, you can come. Period. That you wouldn't need one of the myriad of categories of visas. You wouldn't need a sponsor. You would simply fill out the paperwork, subject yourself to a background check, pay a modest fee, and enter the country. You'd go file for a Social Security number, pay your taxes, and register for the draft (if that applied to you). If you could get the states to co-operate (and it takes their cooperation), immigrants wouldn't be able to draw welfare or food stamps for a few years.

The laws of economics would have the same effect on those immigrants as it does for any American citizen - in other words, sink or swim. Those immigrants would be 'equal' in the workplace to their American peers. Predatory wages and abuse of migrant workers would cease. We would see the truth then - if there are really no Americans who would do 'those jobs'. Over the course of time, some immigrants would stay and prosper. Some would go home.

If you do a bit of historical research, you'll find newspaper and political writings during other periods of heavy immigrant influx with many of the same dire predictions we read today. The rhetoric is old and (as history tends to repeat itself) it also appears to be unfounded.

I say let them come. The tired, the poor, the hungry. Let them come.

My response was to the bit in red...if we're going to sit here and make excuses cos the 'process is hard'...well that to me sounds like a justification. If we can 'understand' the lawbreaking to the point of justification...where's our sympathy for those who are not even fortunate enough to be able to make the journey?

As far as your ideal situation as you've explained above, you're right...that will never come to pass. Forgive me for saying so...but the plan is rooted in nowt but feel-good idealism & has no chance of even remotely working. Sure...this country was founded on immigrants. That was how long ago? Now we have some 300million people here...so how do you expect us to be able to accomodate everyone? that's like saying you'll catch niagra falls with a dixie cup.

The catastrophic consequences of you plan would actually effect every part of this country. From the roads we drive on, the schools our kids go to, the healthcare system, our police force, housing systems, our jail system, firefighters, etc....let alone what it would do to the unemployment rate & the value of the dollar (which is bad enough as it is)...omG the effects would actually have the ability to turn America into a third world country. Let alone the amount of depressed and underprivelged areas already in existence in this country.

I know you weren't seriously putting that forth, and as you said, that would never come to pass...but I had to comment because you brought it up. No one here revels in other people's misery...but the facts are facts...we cannot save the world. Now it's a great ideal and I'm singing 'I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony' right now...but simple logic mandates that we can't buy the world a Coke.

*winks*

What would you say if I told you I am seriously putting it forth? Don't you trust the laws of economics to let things work? You don't believe that the nation and system you think is so great can eventually absorb the migration of more legal taxpayers?

The problems we have with healthcare have nothing to do with the largely youthful migrant population. That's another kettle of fish.

Roads, police, school, jails, firefighters - all that is paid for with taxes. Isn't part of the argument against illegal immigrants that they don't pay their fair share? So let them enter the nation legally, work legally, and pay into the pot. The economic system won't work if they do?

As far as people coming to America - if they want to come, they will find a way. The previous waves of immigrants who (as you mentioned) contributed to this nation came from much further away than south of us. How do you think the Chinese railroad workers got here? They didn't spread wings and fly. Neither did the Italians, Germans and Irish who came for decades. The bulk of the current immigrant population are able to walk over a border. History tells me that's more a sociological phenomen than a geographic one.

People move around the world. It's been happening since the dawn of time. It's not going to stop now because lawmakers decide to build either a physical fence or draw a mental isolationist one. America is a great enough nation to allow the basic principles of economics to work. That is if it doesn't wish to hide behind the fear of 'outsiders' who intend to do it harm.

[Donna A 4]

to me i dont see the difference about an illigal sent back for breaking the law and the kids suffer for it and a parent who has broken the law and is in prison and the kids suffer.

im sorry but illigal is illegal. im glad they were deported.

[Fandango 1,439]

Oh really? So their kids don't go to school that we pay for?

Their kids are U.S. citizens, no?

All children from illegals prolly weren't born here. There are those that immigrate with their parents....

[Fandango 1,439]

You answered your own question tho....

Why? What about their situation shows how illegals drain the system?

I did indicate that it was a bit unusual, but there are many many more stories just like theirs and I can't see how it's hurting our economy. And that's part of my point - everyone has an individual story. And I don't mean that each has their own individual excuse that will be sufficient for everyone about why they did/are doing what they do. I just think it illustrates that there are a variety of different situations for a variety of different reasons. And they aren't all bad people or criminals. Often there are extenuating circumstances that provide some insight into why someone would chose to put themselves in a situation that makes them deportable. In their case, maybe I'm really missing something or am blinded by the fact that I know them personally, but I just dont see how they are hurting anyone. And I don't see how a visa overstayer is a criminal, especially if he overstayed due to extenuating circumstances. I'm not disputing that they all need to go through the process to get themselves legal and that it's necessary, it's just hard to take all of the bashing without recognizing that these are individual people. It's late, I'm tired and I have a feeling I'm expressing myself all that well tonight but I hope you see my point in here somewhere.

Sorry I missed this last night.

Again, I understand full well that these are individual people. But I've already put forth my reasons for how they drain the system....scroll up and check it out.

But we cannot rely on ancedotal campfire-esque stories to justify each and every illegal here. Again, I've explained my POV on that as well.

[Fandango 1,439]

*winks*

What would you say if I told you I am seriously putting it forth? Don't you trust the laws of economics to let things work? You don't believe that the nation and system you think is so great can eventually absorb the migration of more legal taxpayers?

The problems we have with healthcare have nothing to do with the largely youthful migrant population. That's another kettle of fish.

Roads, police, school, jails, firefighters - all that is paid for with taxes. Isn't part of the argument against illegal immigrants that they don't pay their fair share? So let them enter the nation legally, work legally, and pay into the pot. The economic system won't work if they do?

As far as people coming to America - if they want to come, they will find a way. The previous waves of immigrants who (as you mentioned) contributed to this nation came from much further away than south of us. How do you think the Chinese railroad workers got here? They didn't spread wings and fly. Neither did the Italians, Germans and Irish who came for decades. The bulk of the current immigrant population are able to walk over a border. History tells me that's more a sociological phenomen than a geographic one.

People move around the world. It's been happening since the dawn of time. It's not going to stop now because lawmakers decide to build either a physical fence or draw a mental isolationist one. America is a great enough nation to allow the basic principles of economics to work. That is if it doesn't wish to hide behind the fear of 'outsiders' who intend to do it harm.

If you said you were 'seriously putting it forth' I'd tell you to get your head out of the clouds because it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You say 'oh let em sink or swim'...well, where the hell they gonna sink when unemployment rate skyrockets and no one has jobs? Who's going to take care of them then, eh? Hey yeah, let's just let everyone in...you don't need a visa...come on just come in...and do what? Where would they live? Where they gonna sleep?

Because everyone's visa journey here...well the immigrants bit...those went just as planned eh? Smooth as silk? Every single adjustment was just peachy with no issues getting great paying jobs, getting healthcare, etc....right? And those are people who have the security of having a USC spouse, roof over their heads and all that jazz. Hey, when you talk to the dude who's handing out all these great, high payingjobs, tell him I might be interested too:P

And if you don't think geography has owt to do with illegal immigration...well, hah, that astounds me.

But if that's what you believe, hey...more power to ya....I think you should start by inviting a family of illegals to live with you. Money where your mouth is and all that.

Gotta run to a meeting, back later!

Edited May 1, 2007 by LisaD

[rebeccajo 14]

*winks*

What would you say if I told you I am seriously putting it forth? Don't you trust the laws of economics to let things work? You don't believe that the nation and system you think is so great can eventually absorb the migration of more legal taxpayers?

The problems we have with healthcare have nothing to do with the largely youthful migrant population. That's another kettle of fish.

Roads, police, school, jails, firefighters - all that is paid for with taxes. Isn't part of the argument against illegal immigrants that they don't pay their fair share? So let them enter the nation legally, work legally, and pay into the pot. The economic system won't work if they do?

As far as people coming to America - if they want to come, they will find a way. The previous waves of immigrants who (as you mentioned) contributed to this nation came from much further away than south of us. How do you think the Chinese railroad workers got here? They didn't spread wings and fly. Neither did the Italians, Germans and Irish who came for decades. The bulk of the current immigrant population are able to walk over a border. History tells me that's more a sociological phenomen than a geographic one.

People move around the world. It's been happening since the dawn of time. It's not going to stop now because lawmakers decide to build either a physical fence or draw a mental isolationist one. America is a great enough nation to allow the basic principles of economics to work. That is if it doesn't wish to hide behind the fear of 'outsiders' who intend to do it harm.

If you said you were 'seriously putting it forth' I'd tell you to get your head out of the clouds because it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You say 'oh let em sink or swim'...well, where the hell they gonna sink when unemployment rate skyrockets and no one has jobs? Who's going to take care of them then, eh? Hey yeah, let's just let everyone in...you don't need a visa...come on just come in...and do what? Where would they live? Where they gonna sleep?

Because everyone's visa journey here...well the immigrants bit...those went just as planned eh? Smooth as silk? Every single adjustment was just peachy with no issues getting great paying jobs, getting healthcare, etc....right? And those are people who have the security of having a USC spouse, roof over their heads and all that jazz. Hey, when you talk to the dude who's handing out all these great, high payingjobs, tell him I might be interested too:P

And if you don't think geography has owt to do with illegal immigration...well, hah, that astounds me. But if that's what you believe, hey...more power to ya....I think you should start by inviting a family of illegals to live with you. Money where your mouth is and all that.

Gotta run to a meeting, back later!

I didn't say let people in without a visa, now did I?

I didn't say geography has nothing to do with illegal immigration. I said if people want to find a way here bad enough, they will regardless of geography.

If you want to be insulting, try reading thoroughly rather than twisting the meaning.

[Caladan 19]

You know, I guess all I'm saying is that you can believe the family in the article was handled correctly (by being deported) and still say "Man, that sucks for their kids." instead of "Hurray, ten-year-ban mo-fo's throw them in jail to be buggered by apes!" I read the article and thought, "Well, that's about what you'd expect if you get caught, hope their kids manage to graduate high school in the U.S."

We can't have unrestricted immigration; as one of my friends who immigrated from Tehran when he was small said: "Half of Iran would be here tomorrow." It's a lot easier to travel and get plane tickets than it used to be. But I do think that many of the problems with Mexico, for example, stem from NAFTA, and that it's going to be hard to solve the illegal immigration problem without a change in economic policy towards Mexico, and it would be nice if there were an actual visa class for some non-traditionally skilled workers. It's not like there *was* a path for people to come here legally and they skipped it. (I think any plan that just involves building a fence but doesn't also provide a legal path is doomed to failure. Demand is too high.)

From looking around my neighborhood, which is heavily Hispanic, many illegals would even have official sponsors were there a path, so the usual I-864 restrictions could apply. The pattern around here is mostly like this: Hispanic business owner entered legally, his wife entered legally, their kids were born here, and their aunts and uncles are probably overstays or EWIs. And other than immigration, they're law-abiding, and look like the typical tableau of immigrant families. It would be right to deport some of them, legally, but it's hard to see how that would be worth crowing about.

P.S. 25% of illegals are non-Hispanic. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that means at least a quarter aren't EWI, just some form of overstay. That's not just anecdote. Can't jump a fence from Ireland, after all.