A family's painful split decision

[Fandango 1,439]

That's what you get for skim-reading Lisa. Go back and read what I originally wrote.

My ENTIRE gripe with the US immigration system is this. If someone is willing to enter legally (which is difficult under the present system due to NO avenues for unskilled workers OTHER than marrying a USC - which creates fraud) AND if they are willing to apply for a SS number thus work legally and pay taxes AND if they are willing to agree not to use welfare programs for a designated number of years AND if they are willing to subject themselves to a security clearance - then they should be allowed to enter.

The US government should ONLY be interested in the prevention of allowing unsavory characters in. They shouldn't be concerned with the free market and they shouldn't be concerned with whether or not a relationship is bonafide. One of the reasons for originally forming a national government was to preserve the union - to protect it. The government needs to get its nose out of the business of citizens private lives and out of the free market its residents create with their personal sweat and toil.

Oh - and if you were wondering why I commented so NEEDLESSLY about a cap on spousal visa, you might want to take a look at the current White House proposal on immigration which would eliminate some family based categories and give those visas to skilled workers instead. Because the economy needs those skilled workers (in their opinion). So now the government is going to start determining where we need workers? Gee, don't we have enough able bodied Americans? I would think you might like to take a look at what your government is doing regards immigration before you spout off about how the government needs to regulate immigration better so that jobs can be preserved. Looks more like they are planning on giving MORE high paying jobs to immigrants - rather than let the free market take its course.

Becca, please don't accuse me of skim reading. I think YOU should go back and read what you wrote.

Why have we been going back and forth for days then? I made it clear in my posts that I was in favor of legal immigration but CAPPED immigration. And I made many a post on how opening our borders to everyone would negatively affect our country. If you agreed with that... why have you been bickering with me for days? What's with all the 'one needs to remove the isolationist mindset' and all that 'is it immigrants that we have a problem with?' & other stuff your spouting? If you agreed with limiting immigration...why not just a 'hey I agree, but...........?'

Don't make me get into a quote war here because I'm running out the door shortly...but if you want to do that, I'll do it later tonight.

'If they want to come, I say let them come'. Now, I think it's clear that we at least agree on the fact that people who would fail a BG check are not eligible. But apart from this technicality...by removing the unsavory characters from this equation....are you in favor of everyone else coming here if they desire to do so? No caps on anything?

And as to your last paragraph, well that IMO flies in the face of everything you've said in this thread with the whole 'let them come....free market will absorb the influx of immigrants' <---my paraphrase of what you've repeatedly said here. Are you pissed off about the increase in the skilled worker visa or not?

And if you REALLY felt it was that important to discuss, why not just do so then instead of trotting it out now? You posted yesterday with some other article...so why didn't you discuss it then? You led with a question and then ignored it. Now you're trotting it out as if it's some ace up the sleeve like 'well duh, don't you pay attn to what's going on???'.

I just don't get it.

[rebeccajo 14]

I'm out the door here soon as well. Prom night.

No caps. I don't agree with it being limited. That doesn't mean 'open borders'.

And no my last para doesn't fly in the face of everything I've said. The government has decided to mess with the free market by limiting family visas and raising skilled worker visas.

And yes I am saying that you need to pay more attention to whats going on. If you had been interested in finding out, I wouldn't have had to post it. Instead you decided to make fun of it.

Edited May 5, 2007 by rebeccajo

[Fandango 1,439]

I'm out the door here soon as well. Prom night.

No caps. I don't agree with it being limited. That doesn't mean 'open borders'.

And no my last para doesn't fly in the face of everything I've said. The government has decided to mess with the free market by limiting family visas and raising skilled worker visas.

And yes I am saying that you need to pay more attention to whats going on. If you had been interested in finding out, I wouldn't have had to post it. Instead you decided to make fun of it.

Well now here's the source of confusion....'open borders' and 'unlimited immigration' to me are pretty much one and the same...barring the odd rejected person for security reasons.

As for the rest...

You didn't post it for me...I didn't ask you to, nor did I ever say I was unaware either....did I? I found it irrelevant to go down that path because of all the 'ifs'....well IF it came to pass (like I said earlier) then we'll all have to deal with it. There's an old but crass saying 'if my mother had balls she'd be my father'...but obviously she doesn't so she's not. You get my point here?

But since you were truly concerned with this aspect and wanted to discuss it, you should have done so instead of withholding it for some fizzled out 'neener neener boo boo' one-up. You have no idea what I 'pay attn to' so pls try not to be so presumptuous in future

Yanno what Becs? I'm done with this conversation. We're only repeating ourselves and this has gotten beyond sill. And if one of us doesn't stop, this will go on forever...and quite frankly, it's boring me now. So I'll just say I REALLY disagree with you and leave it at that!

Hope your son has fun at prom...I'm outta here

later gator!

[rebeccajo 14]

I'm out the door here soon as well. Prom night.

No caps. I don't agree with it being limited. That doesn't mean 'open borders'.

And no my last para doesn't fly in the face of everything I've said. The government has decided to mess with the free market by limiting family visas and raising skilled worker visas.

And yes I am saying that you need to pay more attention to whats going on. If you had been interested in finding out, I wouldn't have had to post it. Instead you decided to make fun of it.

Well now here's the source of confusion....'open borders' and 'unlimited immigration' to me are pretty much one and the same...barring the odd rejected person for security reasons.

As for the rest...

You didn't post it for me...I didn't ask you to, nor did I ever say I was unaware either....did I? I found it irrelevant to go down that path because of all the 'ifs'....well IF it came to pass (like I said earlier) then we'll all have to deal with it. There's an old but crass saying 'if my mother had balls she'd be my father'...but obviously she doesn't so she's not. You get my point here?

But since you were truly concerned with this aspect and wanted to discuss it, you should have done so instead of withholding it for some fizzled out 'neener neener boo boo' one-up. You have no idea what I 'pay attn to' so pls try not to be so presumptuous in future

Yanno what Becs? I'm done with this conversation. We're only repeating ourselves and this has gotten beyond sill. And if one of us doesn't stop, this will go on forever...and quite frankly, it's boring me now. So I'll just say I REALLY disagree with you and leave it at that!

Hope your son has fun at prom...I'm outta here

later gator!

I wouldn't have minded continuing the conversation, but you decided you wanted to 'teach the world to sing'. In other words, you wanted to argue, mock and make fun of something rather than converse about it.

I'm fully aware you disagree with me. You are not unlike many Americans who have an OPINION about immigration but really know very little about it - oh and before you go to telling me you know more than most Americans because of your time on VJ, save it. Filing for a visa isn't the same thing as reading about upcoming legislation. Plus like most Americans you believe our government is going to 'do something' about the problem of illegal entry - which they are - but in the meantime you don't have a clue about how they are going to fix the problem. Seems to me they are headed down a path of more interference in our personal lives, and more interference in the economy.

So, disagree all you like. It's what you do here best anyway. Move onto another thread where you are a little less bored and find more entertainment value. Saves you from having to think.

Oh - and I really wish you could find an emote that uses the finger you really mean.

Edited May 5, 2007 by rebeccajo

[peejay 327]

Peejay - I'd have to say I agree with you about leaving the borders wide open. But I thought the article had several interesting points, especially about constitutionality.

I think its interesting how American government continues to veer further and further from the original course our forefathers intended. So I didn't link the article so much to state how I feel about immigration, but just as food for thought.

I understand. Actually, I was referring to some of the people I have seen on "Democracy Now" TV and other far left venues that promote the idea that any and all "immigrants", “entrants”, or "migrants" (illegal aliens) as they refer to them should be allowed in without restrictions just because they want to come here. Any attempt to enforce the law in any way becomes a cause celebre to these folks. Of course most of these "activists" don't have a clue as to what would eventually result from their "activism". It's just that it is so mean not to let everyone in and it is just so hip, trendy, and avant-garde to take the so-called moral high ground (especially when someone doesn’t have to personally deal with the result). And it is so enlightened to call people that don’t believe in open border immigration anarchy such insulting names as racist and xenophobe in righteous indignation. But, then again, I often refer to them as the lunatic fringe.

Of course, they have a right to their beliefs and notions. I just happen to believe such a course is undesirable, unsustainable, unpractical, and would turn out to be a disastrous policy. It already has been so far.

I also feel the same way about the so-called fixes our government has produced such as last year's S.2611. This year's Flake/Gutierrez and Kennedy legislations are equally ludicrous. They basically just make the illegal aliens legal, uncap quotas, and throw open the door. It's going in the wrong direction and these unsustainable policies do not benefit a vast majority of the American people (not to mention lowering our overall quality of life). It benefits the few at the expense of the many. I do not believe a vast majority of Americans want this if they were truthfully presented with the facts instead of rhetoric and sound bites.

[homesick_american 1]

True, but the UK is a relatively small, overpopulated country. The population density of the US

would be comparable to the UK if everybody in the US moved to Texas.

Nah, it would be much denser. The UK has about 60 million people on 95,000 square miles. If the whole of the USA moved to Texas, you'd have 300 million people living on 262,000 square miles. The population of the US is 5x that of the UK, but the square mileage of Texas is about 2 3/4 times the size of the UK. Do the math.

The US can accommodate a lot more than 300 million people. The more people, the better --

more businesses, more jobs, and ultimately, more wealth.

Eh...actually in terms of resource usage, there are some areas of the US that are already overpopulated since there isn't enough water to support the populations that already live there. You also have to consider the land required to grow the crops and raise the livestock required to feed our population and support our export market. Double the US population and we'll be hurting.

[Mags 112]

I suppose you've also got to remember that not all of the USA is completely habitable, whereas the UK pretty much is. Fertile soil, relatively good water supply (unless you live in London, can anybody say hosepipe ban? ) and no hot hot hot deserts.

[homesick_american 1]

I suppose you've also got to remember that not all of the USA is completely habitable, whereas the UK pretty much is. Fertile soil, relatively good water supply (unless you live in London, can anybody say hosepipe ban? ) and no hot hot hot deserts.

Well...the deserts are habitable as long as you can get enough water, but for the most part people don't bother because there are more attractive sites to develop that have an adequate water supply. Parts of Scotland can be fairly hostile too (for different reasons); it's not very densely populated at all.

Also, who wants to have people on every square mile of the country? Part of the beauty of the USA (to me) is that there's a whole lotta nothing.

[peejay 327]

I suppose you've also got to remember that not all of the USA is completely habitable, whereas the UK pretty much is. Fertile soil, relatively good water supply (unless you live in London, can anybody say hosepipe ban? ) and no hot hot hot deserts.

Well...the deserts are habitable as long as you can get enough water, but for the most part people don't bother because there are more attractive sites to develop that have an adequate water supply. Parts of Scotland can be fairly hostile too (for different reasons); it's not very densely populated at all.

Also, who wants to have people on every square mile of the country? Part of the beauty of the USA (to me) is that there's a whole lotta nothing.

At the rate we are going (especially in Texas)...it is rapidly disappearing. Since I was born 51 years ago the population of Texas has nearly tripled and the US population has nearly doubled. Most of this is due to loose immigration policies imposed on the American People by our government. That is insane. This needs to be addressed to maintain the quality of life we enjoy in America. Such policies do not benefit the vast majority of Americans and is not sustainable.

http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/census.html

[homesick_american 1]

I suppose you've also got to remember that not all of the USA is completely habitable, whereas the UK pretty much is. Fertile soil, relatively good water supply (unless you live in London, can anybody say hosepipe ban? ) and no hot hot hot deserts.

Well...the deserts are habitable as long as you can get enough water, but for the most part people don't bother because there are more attractive sites to develop that have an adequate water supply. Parts of Scotland can be fairly hostile too (for different reasons); it's not very densely populated at all.

Also, who wants to have people on every square mile of the country? Part of the beauty of the USA (to me) is that there's a whole lotta nothing.

At the rate we are going (especially in Texas)...it is rapidly disappearing. Since I was born 51 years ago the population of Texas has nearly tripled and the US population has nearly doubled. Most of this is due to loose immigration policies imposed on the American People by our government. That is insane. This needs to be addressed to maintain the quality of life we enjoy in America. Such policies do not benefit the vast majority of Americans and is not sustainable.

http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/census.html

Yeah, I know; five of the US's fastest-growing counties are in Texas.

[Mags 112]

I suppose you've also got to remember that not all of the USA is completely habitable, whereas the UK pretty much is. Fertile soil, relatively good water supply (unless you live in London, can anybody say hosepipe ban? ) and no hot hot hot deserts.

Well...the deserts are habitable as long as you can get enough water, but for the most part people don't bother because there are more attractive sites to develop that have an adequate water supply. Parts of Scotland can be fairly hostile too (for different reasons); it's not very densely populated at all.

Also, who wants to have people on every square mile of the country? Part of the beauty of the USA (to me) is that there's a whole lotta nothing.

Exactly, it is water that is the problem, or lack of it. Scotland doesn't have a problem with that. But the Scottish Highlands are one of the most beautiful places I have ever seen and I'd hate for it to become over populated. It's a problem though. The Scottish Highlands of today are a very different place than the ones from my childhood. I think you'll find that unless we are talking about the top of Ben Nevis or the extreme peninsulas, there are an increasing amount of houses going up and people living there. It certainly isn't uninhabitable, in fact it is classed as very desirable now.

However, living here in the USA the first thing that struck me was the space. We live in a small city (10,000) and the nearest other town is at least 20 minutes away. May not seem far but I lived in London, houses everywhere, not a free scrap of land (excluding parks). Even when I lived in Essex, there were still houses between the villages. Here, there is the occasional farmhouse and that's it.

I just couldn't get over the fact that you have to drive for a substantial distance before getting anywhere.

Edited May 6, 2007 by mags

[homesick_american 1]

However, living here in the USA the first thing that struck me was the space. We live in a small city (10,000) and the nearest other town is at least 20 minutes away. May not seem far but I lived in London, houses everywhere, not a free scrap of land (excluding parks). Even when I lived in Essex, there were still houses between the villages. Here, there is the occasional farmhouse and that's it.

I just couldn't get over the fact that you have to drive for a substantial distance before getting anywhere.

I'm coming from the opposite end; I'm used to wide open spaces and the UK feels as cramped as a jail cell to me.