Graphic video shows Daniel Shaver sobbing and begging officer for his life before 2016 shooting

[jayjayj 571]

Just now, bcking said:

The person I was quoted was being dismissive of people shot and killed by police (many of which were unnecessarily killed) by giving a percent rate that is very small. In his own words it was a "pretty low number". I was merely showing that the other number is also a "pretty low number" by the same standards.

 

He stated the rate was so low it wasn't a big deal. I was using his standards and applying it to the number of cops killed.

 

Of course I think BOTH numbers are bad. I just wouldn't focus on one and ignore the other.

 

I was also correcting him with updated information. He seemed to imply that police officer deaths are rising, but that is not the case with the most up to date numbers. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem, just that it isn't getting worse.

 

You cannot equate police officers murdered on the job with police shootings.  Please don't do that.  The vast majority of police shootings are justified and involve someone putting themselves into those circumstances by committing a crime.  This thread is about a police shooting that appears to be unjustified to most people - it is one of the exceptions though.    

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

40 minutes ago, jayjayj said:

 

You cannot equate police officers murdered on the job with police shootings.  Please don't do that.  The vast majority of police shootings are justified and involve someone putting themselves into those circumstances by committing a crime.  This thread is about a police shooting that appears to be unjustified to most people - it is one of the exceptions though.    

That... Thank You

[bcking 3,157]

1 hour ago, jayjayj said:

 

You cannot equate police officers murdered on the job with police shootings.  Please don't do that.  The vast majority of police shootings are justified and involve someone putting themselves into those circumstances by committing a crime.  This thread is about a police shooting that appears to be unjustified to most people - it is one of the exceptions though.    

Committing a crime doesn't automatically justify being shot. Some crimes yes, other crimes no.

 

Do you have any stats to show how many are justified vs not? We can't just assume they all are, or even that the majority are.

[jayjayj 571]

10 minutes ago, bcking said:

Committing a crime doesn't automatically justify being shot. Some crimes yes, other crimes no.

 

Do you have any stats to show how many are justified vs not? We can't just assume they all are, or even that the majority are.

I didn't say that.  I said the majority of police shootings involve someone who is committing a crime - that isn't debatable, it is fact.  Have you ever had a police officer point a gun at you?  I doubt you have, because you haven't put yourself into one of those situations.    

 

Again though, are you equating police officers being murdered with police deadly force incidents?  

 

 

[jayjayj 571]

24 minutes ago, bcking said:

Committing a crime doesn't automatically justify being shot. Some crimes yes, other crimes no.

 

Do you have any stats to show how many are justified vs not? We can't just assume they all are, or even that the majority are.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/10/24/on-duty-under-fire/?utm_term=.c89b0d464ae1

 

Pick it apart as you must.  

 

It is one of the few professions where they have a realistic chance of not making it home after their shift, because they've been murdered by a criminal.  It is also one of the few if the not the only job where there are people who target them for murder because of the uniform they wear or the job they do.  Let's not disrespect them any further.    

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

5 hours ago, bcking said:

Apologies - the 67 was for half the year. I can't seem to find a final tally for 2017 so I don't know if that 20% increase remained steady.

 

 

maybe because the year isn't over yet?

[bcking 3,157]

30 minutes ago, Ban Hammer said:

maybe because the year isn't over yet?

Hardy har....

 

They actually had a number as of December 17th...unlikely to change much in like 14 days.

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

So what percent of crimes justify being shot ?  What an odd position for a person who claims to believe in civil liberties to take.

 

I bet you loved Judge Dredd.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

23 hours ago, bcking said:

The person I was quoted was being dismissive of people shot and killed by police (many of which were unnecessarily killed) by giving a percent rate that is very small. In his own words it was a "pretty low number". I was merely showing that the other number is also a "pretty low number" by the same standards.

 

He stated the rate was so low it wasn't a big deal. I was using his standards and applying it to the number of cops killed.

 

Of course I think BOTH numbers are bad. I just wouldn't focus on one and ignore the other.

 

I was also correcting him with updated information. He seemed to imply that police officer deaths are rising, but that is not the case with the most up to date numbers. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem, just that it isn't getting worse.

Please take a moment and to point to the sentence in my post where I said it wasn’t a big deal.  Oh wait... you cannot do that.  So you misquoted me.  (Something that is actually against the TOS, BTW).

 

I did not use stats from 2017 because they are incomplete.  (Can’t remember now which year’s information I did use, as it came from a couple of different sites, and I failed to paste them.  My bad.)

 

It would stand to reason that more criminals get shot than cops every year.  (Roughly 8 times more, if you work with the numbers in both our posts). Criminals are doing bad things, and tend to resist arrest a lot more often than cops seek to shoot people, wouldn’t you agree?

 

My point with the accurate statistics was to show that in spite of some people’s biases against police officers, there really aren’t that many people killed by cops.  And as JayJay pointed out, if you took out the justified killings (my guess here, but that would be a very significant part of that 937 number), it would drop even more.  I cannot agree that we have a problem in the US with rogue cops running around and killing innocent victims.

 

I do agree that when it happens, the cop(s) in question should be dealt with the same as any other murderer.  Like the cop in this thread, for example.  How he got away with it is beyond me, TBH.

 

Also, about the increase in police deaths that you allegedly debunked, singlehandedly, like a PA-cum-Superhero ....

 

2016 - https://www.npr.org/2017/07/06/535732144/police-fatalities-on-the-rise

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-killed-line-of-duty-increase-2016/

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/police-deaths-increase-2016/511895/

 

“That’s a 56 percent increase in shooting deaths over the previous year. Of the 64 who were fatally shot, 21 were killed in ambush attacks often fueled by anger over police use of force involving minorities.”

 

2017 - http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/07/05/police-officer-deaths-on-duty-have-jumped-nearly-25-percent-in-2017.html

(forgive the source, and I understand if you are physically unable to actually click the link and read it)

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/police-deaths-2016-2015-america-fbi-a8004151.html

[Boiler 45,535]

ToS is my Bible.

 

Sounds like it needs to be bcking's as well.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

I believe he could use a healthy dose of reality to drink while reading that bible.

Edited December 17, 2017 by IDWAF

[Boiler 45,535]

1 minute ago, IDWAF said:

I believe he could use a healthy dose of reality to drink while reading that bible.

Hmmm

 

VJ could sell their own:

 

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

12 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

I believe he could use a healthy dose of reality to drink while reading that bible.

Be very very careful in general .  Some posters might have very fragile egos and be reportinsinkies. Just a rule a thumb I follow. 

[bcking 3,157]

2 hours ago, IDWAF said:

Please take a moment and to point to the sentence in my post where I said it wasn’t a big deal.  Oh wait... you cannot do that.  So you misquoted me.  (Something that is actually against the TOS, BTW).

 

I did not use stats from 2017 because they are incomplete.  (Can’t remember now which year’s information I did use, as it came from a couple of different sites, and I failed to paste them.  My bad.)

 

It would stand to reason that more criminals get shot than cops every year.  (Roughly 8 times more, if you work with the numbers in both our posts). Criminals are doing bad things, and tend to resist arrest a lot more often than cops seek to shoot people, wouldn’t you agree?

 

My point with the accurate statistics was to show that in spite of some people’s biases against police officers, there really aren’t that many people killed by cops.  And as JayJay pointed out, if you took out the justified killings (my guess here, but that would be a very significant part of that 937 number), it would drop even more.  I cannot agree that we have a problem in the US with rogue cops running around and killing innocent victims.

 

I do agree that when it happens, the cop(s) in question should be dealt with the same as any other murderer.  Like the cop in this thread, for example.  How he got away with it is beyond me, TBH.

 

Also, about the increase in police deaths that you allegedly debunked, singlehandedly, like a PA-cum-Superhero ....

 

2016 - https://www.npr.org/2017/07/06/535732144/police-fatalities-on-the-rise

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-killed-line-of-duty-increase-2016/

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/police-deaths-increase-2016/511895/

 

“That’s a 56 percent increase in shooting deaths over the previous year. Of the 64 who were fatally shot, 21 were killed in ambush attacks often fueled by anger over police use of force involving minorities.”

 

2017 - http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/07/05/police-officer-deaths-on-duty-have-jumped-nearly-25-percent-in-2017.html

(forgive the source, and I understand if you are physically unable to actually click the link and read it)

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/police-deaths-2016-2015-america-fbi-a8004151.html

I'm out if town visiting family so I can't get into a long discussion.

 

I originally only directly quoted you that numbers were "pretty low". It was my interpretation that by saying that, you were trying to suggest it wasn't very significant. If that wasn't your intention, then why were you pointing out that the number is low?

 

The number of police officers who die on the job is also a pretty low number. Yes any number is sad, and even a single death is bad, but it is still pretty darn low, and in fact the rate is getting better. As people have suggested here - police officers know that their job is dangerous, it comes with the territory. So there will always be some amount of risk (they are dealing with criminals after all, some of which will always be violent). The question is whether the rate is above what would be expected for the job? I have no idea. 

 

I was thinking we could compare it to other countries perhaps, but I don't have the time to do that now.

 

In short - my only original point is that BOTH numbers are pretty darn small. If we want to state one is small and therefore possibly not as significant (which, in my opinion, is what you were implying. If not please explain what you were suggesting) we could do the same for the other statistic. They are both less than 0.1%. Both are a problem, in my view, despite both being very small rates.

 

Gotta get back to family. In the spirit of the season, Merry Christmas.

Edited December 17, 2017 by bcking

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

9 hours ago, bcking said:

I'm out if town visiting family so I can't get into a long discussion.

 

I originally only directly quoted you that numbers were "pretty low". It was my interpretation that by saying that, you were trying to suggest it wasn't very significant. If that wasn't your intention, then why were you pointing out that the number is low?

 

The number of police officers who die on the job is also a pretty low number. Yes any number is sad, and even a single death is bad, but it is still pretty darn low, and in fact the rate is getting better. As people have suggested here - police officers know that their job is dangerous, it comes with the territory. So there will always be some amount of risk (they are dealing with criminals after all, some of which will always be violent). The question is whether the rate is above what would be expected for the job? I have no idea. 

 

I was thinking we could compare it to other countries perhaps, but I don't have the time to do that now.

 

In short - my only original point is that BOTH numbers are pretty darn small. If we want to state one is small and therefore possibly not as significant (which, in my opinion, is what you were implying. If not please explain what you were suggesting) we could do the same for the other statistic. They are both less than 0.1%. Both are a problem, in my view, despite both being very small rates.

 

Gotta get back to family. In the spirit of the season, Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas to you and yours as well!

 

I said it was a small percentage because... well, it IS!  The article posted makes it sound like there is a systemic problem it’s cops killing people.  The person who posted has a long history of not liking many things cops do and we have discussed it in the past.  As I said above... any cop who kills innocents in a malicious manner (such as the OP), or cops who are more apt to shoot at a particular group of people, they should be brought to justice and dealt with accordingly. But they are the rare case, IMO.

 

That 937 number that was posted... that wasn’t a number of innocent victims slain by rogue cops.  That’s all the people shot by cops in the line of duty.  I didn’t take the time to count them all, but I’d wager a glass of your favorite beverage that the majority were justifiable killings.  Cops defending themselves.  Something which, in a split second, can lead to errors and misjudgments, not denying that.  But killing by mistake is NOT the same thing as just executing innocents.

 

You probably didn’t have time to peruse the links I provided just above, but no, the number of cop deaths is not on the decline.  In fact, one of the articles (maybe the 2016 one?) mentioned that the number of cops being shot on the job had gone up 50% in one year, the highest increase ever seen, or words to that effect.  

 

Yes, it is a high-risk job.  And basically thankless.And just like any other profession, idiots and even bad people get in.  And those are the ones to watch out for, the ones who will shoot to kill when it’s not needed.  But when I see someone generalizing about our brothers in blue, labeling them as a force gone rogue that deserves disdain and worse, that bothers me.  Because they ARE putting their lives on the line, every day, risking themselves for you and I all over the country.

 

To label cops as bad in general, or out of control - going around killing innocent people willy-nilly makes about as much sense as when people say gun owners need to give up their guns when there is a shooting.