Former police officer in Mexico convicted of raping a woman at Aurora apartment complex

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

21 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

But what if a wall stops even one rape?  We always hear we need more and more gun laws to stop even one death, why is this different, isn’t one life or rape victim worth the cost of the wall?

Darn didn't see this before so made the same brilliant argument 

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

16 minutes ago, bcking said:

They aren't for rapists. That is what you asked.

 

They exist to protect non-violent illegal immigrants and make them feel safe, so they feel more willing to come forward and report things, or use services to help them and their family.

They exist to protect non violent criminals or illegals as you called them 

[Dashinka 24,793]

16 minutes ago, bcking said:

They aren't for rapists. That is what you asked.

 

They exist to protect non-violent illegal immigrants and make them feel safe, so they feel more willing to come forward and report things, or use services to help them and their family.

They do?  It seems that they would also be very attractive to pretty much any illegal immigrant.

[Dashinka 24,793]

17 minutes ago, bcking said:

This may sound cold...

 

No it would not be worth it. While every case is abhorrent, we can't operate under the assumption that something is "worthwhile" as as a massive public policy as long as it stops a single event. A wall would cost trillions to build and maintain. That would not be worth it if it only stopped one case.

 

As for the comparison with guns laws:

 

1. Greater gun ownership restrictions would not cost anything like what a wall costs

2. Most people who support those restrictions would argue that they would prevent far more than a single event. Just like you would argue the wall would prevent more than one event.

Trillions?  Do you have valid estimates?  If so, it is too bad Obama added all those trillions to the federal budget deficit, he could have already had the wall built.

[bcking 3,157]

Just now, Bill & Katya said:

Trillions?  Do you have valid estimates?  If so, it is too bad Obama added all those trillions to the federal budget deficit, he could have already had the wall built.

I don't remember the estimates exactly. There were many, and they were all very high 

 

Much higher than any gun control plan would cost.

[bcking 3,157]

6 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

They do?  It seems that they would also be very attractive to pretty much any illegal immigrant.

What they are attractive to is still not the same thing as what they are for.

 

Opioids are attractive to drug abusers, but they aren't for them

 

A playground is for children, but they can also be attractive to pedophiles. Doesn't mean a playground is for pedophiles.

[bcking 3,157]

26 minutes ago, Boiler said:

So it is just about money?

 

Of course not, but we also need to be realistic. A country can't make policy decisions to change a single event. We have to argue or at least believe that what we are doing is going to have a larger impact. That's just being realistic.

 

I know people who believe in a wall believe it will prevent a lot more than one single violent immigrant. I'm sure you want it to do much more than that. 

 

An economic evaluation has to include a numerator and denominator. It has to include outcome AND cost. That is how you determine the "value" of something. (My academic interests are in this topic, as it applies to medicine)

 

Heading to a couple meetings now...

Edited December 7, 2017 by bcking

[Dashinka 24,793]

4 minutes ago, bcking said:

Of course not, but we also need to be realistic. A country can make policy decisions to change a single event. We have to argue or at least believe that what we are doing is going to have a larger impact. That's just being realistic.

 

I know people who believe in a wall believe it will prevent a lot more than one single violent immigrant. I'm sure you want it to do much more than that. 

 

An economic evaluation has to include a numerator and denominator. It has to include outcome AND cost. That is how you determine the "value" of something. (My academic interests are in this topic, as it applies to medicine)

 

Heading to a couple meetings now...

But isn’t a human life considered priceless?  No need to show the math.

[bcking 3,157]

8 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

But isn’t a human life considered priceless?  No need to show the math.

Look up QALYs and ICERS and healthcare economics. Also specifically cost-effectiveness thresholds (or "willingness-to-pay).

 

Ideally, and on an individual patient level, yes we can think that way. From a policy/country/society level, realistically we can't. We have to think in terms of value and each society has to determine what they are able to reasonably afford.

 

Though at least right now the US has tried to restrict us in thinking about these concepts in medicine. That will have to change if we actually want to reduce our healthcare spending to a reasonable degree.

 

I actually have to pay attention in this meeting so enjoy the reading assignment and you can come back and tell me what you've learned later

Edited December 7, 2017 by bcking

[Boiler 46,108]

32 minutes ago, bcking said:

Look up QALYs and ICERS and healthcare economics. Also specifically cost-effectiveness thresholds (or "willingness-to-pay).

 

Ideally, and on an individual patient level, yes we can think that way. From a policy/country/society level, realistically we can't. We have to think in terms of value and each society has to determine what they are able to reasonably afford.

 

Though at least right now the US has tried to restrict us in thinking about these concepts in medicine. That will have to change if we actually want to reduce our healthcare spending to a reasonable degree.

 

I actually have to pay attention in this meeting so enjoy the reading assignment and you can come back and tell me what you've learned later

Good to know, must save it to be quoted next time you make the opposite argument.

[bcking 3,157]

10 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Good to know, must save it to be quoted next time you make the opposite argument.

That's fine. I've never made the opposite argument. I can't speak for others.

 

Feel free to retrospectively look for an example where I have. You won't find it.