Sticky K1 situation

[geowrian 22,337]

6 minutes ago, mcfarljw said:

That to me seems like an absolute distinction between being legally married and not married unless I'm missing some fine print clause that states otherwise. Am I missing something?

The "fine print" is in the FAM. The CO must be convinced that the visa applicant meets the requirements for the visa, which include that the couple 1) is, was, and will continue to be free to marry from I-129F filing until entry into the US, and 2) will marry within 90 days of entry on the K-1 visa. Seeing a ceremony that may appear to be an unrecorded or undisclosed wedding can raise sufficient doubt on either of these points. This is within their discretion to decide.

 

There's nothing explicit that says you cannot have an unofficial ceremony in the FAM or INA.

[Nitas_man 3,100]

4 minutes ago, geowrian said:

The "fine print" is in the FAM. The CO must be convinced that the visa applicant meets the requirements for the visa, which include that the couple 1) is, was, and will continue to be free to marry from I-129F filing until entry into the US, and 2) will marry within 90 days of entry on the K-1 visa. Seeing a ceremony that may appear to be an unrecorded or undisclosed wedding can raise sufficient doubt on either of these points. This is within their discretion to decide.

 

There's nothing explicit that says you cannot have an unofficial ceremony in the FAM or INA.

A party is one thing, a party chaired by a religious figure blessing the union is quite another.  At what point does every state considered you married?  Not when you file the paperwork after the fact, but as soon as the priest/pastor/etc pronounces it. 

Small wonder our CO's interpret it as a wedding.  It's a ceremony with an individual who is empowered to marry two people.

It was not smart.  They should have married or not.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Nitas_man

[mcfarljw 36]

2 minutes ago, geowrian said:

Seeing a ceremony that may appear to be an unrecorded or undisclosed wedding can raise sufficient doubt on either of these points.

What do you mean by unrecorded or undisclosed wedding? It seems like it would be extremely easy to check whether or not a marriage has been legally registered or not.

[Nitas_man 3,100]

Just now, mcfarljw said:

What do you mean by unrecorded or undisclosed wedding? It seems like it would be extremely easy to check whether or not a marriage has been legally registered or not.

A marriage under US law occurs at the ceremony with someone, anyone empowered to pronounce it and the date on the recorded documents reflect that. 

[mcfarljw 36]

1 minute ago, Nitas_man said:

A marriage under US law occurs at the ceremony with someone, anyone empowered to pronounce it and the date on the recorded documents reflect that. 

Hmm, I guess I don't know that much about marriage laws in the US. But it sounds like if you were in the US and didn't get a marriage license, but still had a ceremony as a formality it wouldn't actually mean anything legally.

[Murph4865 597]

5 hours ago, mcfarljw said:

Hmm, I guess I don't know that much about marriage laws in the US. But it sounds like if you were in the US and didn't get a marriage license, but still had a ceremony as a formality it wouldn't actually mean anything legally.

Here in the USA you can have a ceremony all you want and it does not constitute a marriage until a legal representative  officiates it, ( i.e. judge, justice of the peace or a priest. ) 

[Boiler 45,658]

Certainly in the UK it is one and the same thing, CofE wedding and you are married.

[June2017UK 430]

6 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Certainly in the UK it is one and the same thing, CofE wedding and you are married.

Really? I’m CofE and I couldn’t get married in my church of preference, although they agreed to a blessing, but I wouldn’t be legally married.

 

[Boiler 45,658]

If you did not get married, well you did not get married.

 

I am a bit out of date but thought your local Church did not have a choice.

[June2017UK 430]

Just now, Boiler said:

If you did not get married, well you did not get married.

 

I am a bit out of date but thought your local Church did not have a choice.

Hey, I may even be confusing myself. We couldn’t get married there because neither of our families live in the parish anymore (ironically both of our parents married in the same church in the 60’s). However, they agreed to the blessing, but perhaps that is because we would already be legally married elsewhere by the time we do the blessing.

For the record though, I’d definitely not have a blessing in the UK prior to entering the USA on a K1. It’s not worth the risk... too much of a grey area.

[Boiler 45,658]

Blessing in the UK is legally meaningless and I am sure the Consulate knows that.

 

My recollection is hazy but basically depends on where one of the spouses live, you obviously have to read the bans but did not thing where family lived was relevant.

[Limey 551]

One should remember that the requirements for a valid marriage vary from country to country. Its quite possible that marriages that took place outside the US don't meet the requirements for a marriage in the USA. But so long as they are valid in that other country, then the US will accept them as valid.

 

For example, in Brazil I believe its possible to get married by proxy. I had two Brazilian friends who were living in the United Arab Emirates. They got married in Brazil, in a ceremony creating a valid legally recognized marriage - without EITHER of them attending the wedding - they remained in the UAE the entire time. They were able to appoint "proxies" to attend the wedding in Brazil on their behalf, in the same way you can appoint a proxy to attend company meetings or vote for you in the UK.

 

As far as I'm aware you cannot do this in the USA, and must attend your wedding in person. So would the USA recognize that proxy marriage in Brazil, even though it would not be valid in the USA? Yes. Its a valid Brazilian marriage so it will be recognized.

 

So this provides a problem for the US immigration officer. He can't possibly be an expert on what does and doesn't constitute a valid marriage in a couple of hundred other countries. If he sees any evidence that you might have gone through some sort of marriage related ceremony in a third country, he has to err on the side of caution and assume that it has created a legally valid marriage, even if a similar ceremony in the USA would not constitute a legal marriage, because the laws in that other country may well be different.

 

Of course in the case of the CR1 visa, the officer can insist on seeing a certificate proving the marriage is complete and legal.

 

The end result is that you can be too married for a k1 (ie the officer has concerns that the ceremony may have created a legal marriage) but not married enough for a CR1 (there is no certificate to prove a valid marriage).

[geowrian 22,337]

On 12/9/2017 at 4:48 AM, Murph4865 said:

Here in the USA you can have a ceremony all you want and it does not constitute a marriage until a legal representative  officiates it, ( i.e. judge, justice of the peace or a priest. ) 

To be more specific, you need a marriage license + a qualified officiant to solemnize the marriage in the US. They are supposed to send in the signed marriage license to get it recorded as well, but the legal marriage occurs at the point of signing. If they don't send it in for whatever reason (forgets, medical issue, gets lost in the mail, etc.) there is no official record of the marriage but the marriage itself is still legal.

 

57 minutes ago, Limey said:

As far as I'm aware you cannot do this in the USA, and must attend your wedding in person. So would the USA recognize that proxy marriage in Brazil, even though it would not be valid in the USA? Yes. Its a valid Brazilian marriage so it will be recognized.

In general, yes. But there are also situations in which a valid foreign marriage will NOT be recognized by the US for immigration purposes...such as marriage to a second+ wife, marriage to somebody related by blood, same sex marriages (in the past...this is recognized now), etc. Proxy marriages are recognized for US immigration purposes, although certain strict requirements must be met...such as having to had consummated the marriage (this probably doesn't mean what you think it does!).

 

Anyway, the point is that just because somebody is legally married in another country doesn't necessarily mean the US will recognize that marriage either. At the same time, as you noted, there are many marriages that don't follow the same requirements as you would have to meet in the US, but can be recognized (such as certain religious and customs-based marriages).