House approves concealed-carry reciprocity, gun bill faces challenge in Senate

[Boiler 46,108]

14 minutes ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

We are just talking about the Permit. Now the next question would be :  Can I use that permit the same way in any state, country or city?In that case I say no,  the state or the city has an interest in restricting your ability to carry a concealed weapon and if they do not want weapons in a church or bar that is up to the local authority.  Federal land and buildings will always be subject to their own rule.  So I am not talking about full reciprocation.

 

But the premise is :  A common standard for training, vetting and issuing a permit will be enforced.  

The problem seems to be at the moment those areas that are not shall issue.

 

Private property owners do of course have a say, but on public property I am in favour of equality for all.

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

5 minutes ago, Boiler said:

The problem seems to be at the moment those areas that are not shall issue.

 

Private property owners do of course have a say, but on public property I am in favour of equality for all.

Let the shall not issue folks opt out altogether.  Just leave you guns with the sherrif and you can pick them up on the way out of Town.

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

4 minutes ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

Let the shall not issue folks opt out altogether.  Just leave you guns with the sherrif and you can pick them up on the way out of Town.

No thanks, the sheriff may take a liking to my guns and just confiscate them. Oh right because I have Glock 22 Gen4 that is not legal here in California but in NC it is, then he will confiscate it. 

[Boiler 46,108]

2 minutes ago, cyberfx1024 said:

No thanks, the sheriff may take a liking to my guns and just confiscate them. Oh right because I have Glock 22 Gen4 that is not legal here in California but in NC it is, then he will confiscate it. 

Would be open to massive civil rights abuse, surprised it was even mentioned.

[jayjayj 571]

21 minutes ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

We are just talking about the Permit. Now the next question would be :  Can I use that permit the same way in any state, country or city?In that case I say no,  the state or the city has an interest in restricting your ability to carry a concealed weapon and if they do not want weapons in a church or bar that is up to the local authority.  Federal land and buildings will always be subject to their own rule.  So I am not talking about full reciprocation.

 

But the premise is :  A common standard for training, vetting and issuing a permit will be enforced.  

A federal permit to conceal carry would be valid in all 50 states.  Otherwise, there is no point to it at all.  Different entities can still restrict people from entering facilities with a weapon - that wouldn't change.  However, it isn't up state officials to forbid gun owners from carrying weapons in a church, it is up to each individual church, just like it is up to each individual business.  Bars are different because they are regulated by states, but even that is stupid, because people just leave their weapons in the the car and you can't prevent someone from going out to their car and retrieving their weapon in the heat of the moment - that takes a minute or two.       

 

The current bill going through Congress is full national reciprocity.  It doesn't create a federal database.  If forces all states to recognize the validity of other state's concealed carry permits.  I would be willing to make a concession and create a federal database of conceal permit holders, this would not be a gun ownership registry though.  A federal database of conceal carry permits would allow law enforcement officers to easily verify the validity of a concealed carry permit from another state.  

 

   

[jayjayj 571]

2 hours ago, cyberfx1024 said:

 

If it allows me to travel from NC to CA without breaking any laws while carrying a Federal CCW then I am all for it. I have literally tried to get a CCW twice here in Los Angeles County and was denied each time due to "You do not have a sufficient need to have one", when I stated in my application that I wanted to protect myself and my family.  But this is LA County where you can't get a CCW unless you fall into one of the three following catagories:

 

1. Rich and/or Celebrity

2. Friends of the Sherif

3. Donate heavily to the Sheriff's campaign

 

All of this is true if you don't believe me. All the while the counties surrounding us issue them all day every day. My coworkers in Riverside, OC, and Kern Counties all carry concealed when in our work trucks due to bears/wildcats and tweakers. 

 

You gotta get out of that state!  It is a disaster waiting to happen.

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

2 minutes ago, jayjayj said:

 

You gotta get out of that state!  It is a disaster waiting to happen.

The last day I am here in Commie California is the 18th. I will then drive to NC with the family and be working on Ft. Bragg doing 2210 stuff.

Edited December 8, 2017 by cyberfx1024

[jayjayj 571]

Just now, cyberfx1024 said:

The last day I am here in Commie California is the 18th. I will then drive to NC with the family and be working on Ft. Bragg doing InfoSec.

Nice!  You're going to be much happier on the east coast.  As an added bonus, you are getting away from those horribly high California state and local taxes that you wouldn't have been able to deduct anymore under the new tax bill.  

 

Once the new national reciprocity bill passes, you should be able to conceal carry on Ft. Bragg as well.    

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

7 minutes ago, jayjayj said:

A federal permit to conceal carry would be valid in all 50 states.  Otherwise, there is no point to it at all.  Different entities can still restrict people from entering facilities with a weapon - that wouldn't change.  However, it isn't up state officials to forbid gun owners from carrying weapons in a church, it is up to each individual church, just like it is up to each individual business.  Bars are different because they are regulated by states, but even that is stupid, because people just leave their weapons in the the car and you can't prevent someone from going out to their car and retrieving their weapon in the heat of the moment - that takes a minute or two.       

 

The current bill going through Congress is full national reciprocity.  It doesn't create a federal database.  If forces all states to recognize the validity of other state's concealed carry permits.  I would be willing to make a concession and create a federal database of conceal permit holders, this would not be a gun ownership registry though.  A federal database of conceal carry permits would allow law enforcement officers to easily verify the validity of a concealed carry permit from another state.  

 

   

Bring all the states up to the same standards and crtiteron, mandatory training, 1 centralized database, all Federal and state crime and arrest data fed in and matched daily. Miltary discharge and discipline records fed in daily. Then we can talk reciprocation. But until then, why should my state have the burden of your states poor standards of vetting and issuing? 

[jayjayj 571]

19 minutes ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

Bring all the states up to the same standards and crtiteron, mandatory training, 1 centralized database, all Federal and state crime and arrest data fed in and matched daily. Miltary discharge and discipline records fed in daily. Then we can talk reciprocation. But until then, why should my state have the burden of your states poor standards of vetting and issuing? 

We don't need to talk about reciprocation.  It is happening now and will be law early next year.  Every state, including yours, will be forced to comply and recognize my concealed carry permit.  I'll probably drive to Chicago the day after this law is passed just to make a point.  You started out agreeing to a national concealed permit registry, but now you are adding and adding to it.  This is why gun owners don't trust anti-gun people.

 

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

9 hours ago, jayjayj said:

We don't need to talk about reciprocation.  It is happening now and will be law early next year.  Every state, including yours, will be forced to comply and recognize my concealed carry permit.  I'll probably drive to Chicago the day after this law is passed just to make a point.  You started out agreeing to a national concealed permit registry, but now you are adding and adding to it.  This is why gun owners don't trust anti-gun people.

 

And of course why one talk when they have weapons?

[jayjayj 571]

1 hour ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

And of course why one talk when they have weapons?

Come on.  My point of not needing to talk about the concealed carry reciprocation issue was only because it will soon be the law of the land.  I tried to talk to you about it.  You don't need to dramatize it and suggest that a person who owns weapons is going to immediately use them for nefarious purposes instead of talking.  If you want to have an honest discussion, then don't play those games.  We can start the conversation with you acknowledging that only a small fraction of a percent of gun violence is committed by legal concealed carry permit holders.  That is a fact.  Are you willing to acknowledge it?  

 

I was willing to make a concession and move the state level concealed carry permit databases to one centralized federal database.  You initially agreed to that, but then flip flopped and insisted on adding in a bunch of other restrictive policies that do nothing but impede legal gun ownership .  This is why most pro-gun people don't bother to have a conversation with anti-gun people.  Pro-gun people offer a concession, which is initially agreed to by both sides, only to have the anti-gun folks decide they didn't get enough concessions and then insist on more being added.  The concessions only ever go one way, toward more gun control and eventually gun confiscation.  Small steps add up to big leaps, is I think how many anti-gun people refer to it.  That is your ultimate goal, right?  If that isn't your ultimate goal, what is?  Be honest.   

 

[Boiler 46,108]

5 hours ago, jayjayj said:

Come on.  My point of not needing to talk about the concealed carry reciprocation issue was only because it will soon be the law of the land.  I tried to talk to you about it.  You don't need to dramatize it and suggest that a person who owns weapons is going to immediately use them for nefarious purposes instead of talking.  If you want to have an honest discussion, then don't play those games.  We can start the conversation with you acknowledging that only a small fraction of a percent of gun violence is committed by legal concealed carry permit holders.  That is a fact.  Are you willing to acknowledge it?  

 

I was willing to make a concession and move the state level concealed carry permit databases to one centralized federal database.  You initially agreed to that, but then flip flopped and insisted on adding in a bunch of other restrictive policies that do nothing but impede legal gun ownership .  This is why most pro-gun people don't bother to have a conversation with anti-gun people.  Pro-gun people offer a concession, which is initially agreed to by both sides, only to have the anti-gun folks decide they didn't get enough concessions and then insist on more being added.  The concessions only ever go one way, toward more gun control and eventually gun confiscation.  Small steps add up to big leaps, is I think how many anti-gun people refer to it.  That is your ultimate goal, right?  If that isn't your ultimate goal, what is?  Be honest.   

 

Switch and bait.

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

5 hours ago, jayjayj said:

Come on.  My point of not needing to talk about the concealed carry reciprocation issue was only because it will soon be the law of the land.  I tried to talk to you about it.  You don't need to dramatize it and suggest that a person who owns weapons is going to immediately use them for nefarious purposes instead of talking.  If you want to have an honest discussion, then don't play those games.  We can start the conversation with you acknowledging that only a small fraction of a percent of gun violence is committed by legal concealed carry permit holders.  That is a fact.  Are you willing to acknowledge it?  

 

I was willing to make a concession and move the state level concealed carry permit databases to one centralized federal database.  You initially agreed to that, but then flip flopped and insisted on adding in a bunch of other restrictive policies that do nothing but impede legal gun ownership .  This is why most pro-gun people don't bother to have a conversation with anti-gun people.  Pro-gun people offer a concession, which is initially agreed to by both sides, only to have the anti-gun folks decide they didn't get enough concessions and then insist on more being added.  The concessions only ever go one way, toward more gun control and eventually gun confiscation.  Small steps add up to big leaps, is I think how many anti-gun people refer to it.  That is your ultimate goal, right?  If that isn't your ultimate goal, what is?  Be honest.   

 

Some folks have an odd way of "starting conversation"

I was talking about the praticallity of having local police equipped with the data they need to ascertain whether a person should be carrying a concealed weapon. The mass shooting in Texas underscores that current crime data can prevent tragedy. 

 

If it gets through the Senate then there will be some court challenges on the details of implementation. . Like most things coming out of Congress nowadays, this law is sloppy and passed without adequate input.

 

 

 

 

 

[jayjayj 571]

9 minutes ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

Some folks have an odd way of "starting conversation"

I was talking about the praticallity of having local police equipped with the data they need to ascertain whether a person should be carrying a concealed weapon. The mass shooting in Texas underscores that current crime data can prevent tragedy. 

 

If it gets through the Senate then there will be some court challenges on the details of implementation. . Like most things coming out of Congress nowadays, this law is sloppy and passed without adequate input.

 

 

 

 

 

I was talking about the same thing and was willing to make a concession for a federal concealed carry permit database.  It would be practical and reduce time people have to wait for LE to confirm their concealed carry permit.  You added multiple demands to your initial acceptance of that concession.  

 

Which part of the law is sloppy?  It is fairly simple, similar to a drivers license, every state must accept and recognize another state's concealed carry permits.  It isn't forcing every state to issue concealed carry permits at higher rates or to even issue them at all.    

 

It could be challenged, but the NRA will work with the Department of Justice to quickly move it to the Supreme Court for a Constitutional test.    

 

But to your first point, I'm just trying to get you to acknowledge factual statistics about concealed carry permit holders.  I'm trying to gauge how honest and straight forward you are being in this conversation.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by jayjayj