Philippines, religious ceremony, CENOMAR

[Bill&leah 0]

i didnt mean "work out" as in, to do something and "Get away" with it...not trying to commit fraud...just wondering if the officers in manilla tend to deny if they found evidence of some engagement party / religious ceremony thing even with knowing that there is no legal marriage and it was just that, only a ceremony, not a catholic one at that. Most immigration lawyer websites are all saying it is ok to have a ceremony, just probably not the best idea to go producing pictures of it during your interview as then things start to confuse the officer and then you just shot your self in the foot, not that you admitted fraud, or that there was fraud because your not actually married, but that you just swayed the officers mind into the not so sure about this one and this looks fishy to me so then your denied told to go get a marriage visa instead because sorry, your little party looked like a wedding to me. you know? 

[payxibka 10,047]

I am sure that in his investigation of what he wants to do will be considered a legal wedding then I guarantee it he WON't do it

[Naes 12,205]

1 minute ago, Bill&leah said:

i didnt mean "work out" as in, to do something and "Get away" with it...not trying to commit fraud...just wondering if the officers in manilla tend to deny if they found evidence of some engagement party / religious ceremony thing even with knowing that there is no legal marriage and it was just that, only a ceremony, not a catholic one at that. Most immigration lawyer websites are all saying it is ok to have a ceremony, just probably not the best idea to go producing pictures of it during your interview as then things start to confuse the officer and then you just shot your self in the foot, not that you admitted fraud, or that there was fraud because your not actually married, but that you just swayed the officers mind into the not so sure about this one and this looks fishy to me so then your denied told to go get a marriage visa instead because sorry, your little party looked like a wedding to me. you know? 

Call it engagement.

Don't call it a religious wedding ceremony because Philippine law may consider it already married.

 

would be my advise

[payxibka 10,047]

5 minutes ago, Bill&leah said:

i didnt mean "work out" as in, to do something and "Get away" with it...not trying to commit fraud...just wondering if the officers in manilla tend to deny if they found evidence of some engagement party / religious ceremony thing even with knowing that there is no legal marriage and it was just that, only a ceremony, not a catholic one at that. Most immigration lawyer websites are all saying it is ok to have a ceremony, just probably not the best idea to go producing pictures of it during your interview as then things start to confuse the officer and then you just shot your self in the foot, not that you admitted fraud, or that there was fraud because your not actually married, but that you just swayed the officers mind into the not so sure about this one and this looks fishy to me so then your denied told to go get a marriage visa instead because sorry, your little party looked like a wedding to me. you know? 

They definitely will deny if they see anything regarding your plan because the presumption that it occurred and it will be very difficult to unwind it.  That's why no pictures can be seen anywhere, not at the interview or even on ANY social media.

Edited December 5, 2017 by payxibka

[geowrian 22,338]

32 minutes ago, payxibka said:

I don't think the OP had any intention of registering it because it is not intended to be a legally recognized.

Whether or not it is legally / formally recognized (yet) doesn't mean it's not a real marriage. In some countries, you are legally married without ever registering it. In such a case, applying for, or entering with, a K-1 visa is actually a misrepresentation as you were not actually free to marry at the time. You just lacked documentation of already being married. If that misrepresentation is determined to be willful and material, then it's a material misrepresentation or fraud. I agree in not throwing around the fraud word loosely, but at the same time there are situations where this sequence of events is fraud.

 

17 minutes ago, Bill&leah said:

just wondering if the officers in manilla tend to deny if they found evidence of some engagement party / religious ceremony thing even with knowing that there is no legal marriage and it was just that, only a ceremony, not a catholic one at that.

If they believe in any way that you may already be married or will not marry int he US, they will deny the visa. If they also believe you knowingly lied about your marriage status, they will issue a material misrepresentation / fraud permanent bar (waivable with a good case, but definitely not something you want to go through).

 

Could a CO believe it's only an unofficial event and not have any concerns? Sure. Many people do "unofficial" weddings. Could they believe otherwise in an abundance of caution? Yes, and we've seen them do this in a number of cases on VJ.

Know the risks. Personally, it does not at all seem worthwhile to pursue something that could result in a year or 2 of delays and more filing fees.

 

One other such case this year. They volunteered the info, but it's not unreasonable to expect that a CO may find out on their own as well.

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by geowrian

[payxibka 10,047]

3 minutes ago, geowrian said:

Whether or not it is legally / formally recognized (yet) doesn't mean it's not a real marriage. In some countries, you are legally married without ever registering it. In such a case, applying for, or entering with, a K-1 visa is actually a misrepresentation as you were not actually free to marry at the time. You just lacked documentation of already being married. If that misrepresentation is determined to be willful and material, then it's a material misrepresentation or fraud. I agree in not throwing around the fraud word loosely, but at the same time there are situations where this sequence of events is fraud.

 

If they believe in any way that you may already be married or will not marry int he US, they will deny the visa. If they also believe you knowingly lied about your marriage status, they will issue a material misrepresentation / fraud permanent bar (waivable with a good case, but definitely not something you want to go through).

 

Could a CO believe it's only an unofficial event and not have any concerns? Sure. Many people do "unofficial" weddings. Could they believe otherwise in an abundance of caution? Yes, and we've seen them do this in a number of cases on VJ.

Know the risks. Personally, it does not at all seem worthwhile to pursue something that could result in a year or 2 of delays and more filing fees.

 

One other such case this year:

 

That is why the OP needs to understand what constitutes a legal marriage in the Philippines.  Not Australia or some other country.  If what he is proposing is recognized then he needs to stop right here right now with the idea.  Even if it is not legally recognized but the Embassy sees or is told what has occurred then it is a situation of guilty until proven innocent and it will be very difficult to eliminate the presumption of guilt

[geowrian 22,338]

5 minutes ago, payxibka said:

That is why the OP needs to understand what constitutes a legal marriage in the Philippines.  Not Australia or some other country.  If what he is proposing is recognized then he needs to stop right here right now with the idea.  Even if it is not legally recognized but the Embassy sees or is told what has occurred then it is a situation of guilty until proven innocent and it will be very difficult to eliminate the presumption of guilt

Yup, exactly.

[RO_AH 1,663]

Don't do it. Have a real wedding then get a CR-1

[Unlockable 7,315]

I mean... my biggest question is, why even risk it? If having a ceremony there is so important (and I'm guessing it is to satisfy the fiance's family), then simply get married in the Philippines and file a spousal visa. The spousal visa is a much better visa anyway.

Or another option is to come to the US on a K1, get married, AOS, then plan a nice wedding in the PH together, then go back and have the ceremony.

 

@geowrian already showed you an example of a person getting denied because of a ceremony. I even remember a member who almost got denied because he saw a picture of her and her husband together at a friend's wedding and questioned if it was actually their wedding.

 

Again....why risk it?

[Kevin&Kanyanat 172]

15 hours ago, Bill&leah said:

I know this question may have been asked a million times already but i have not found any that involve discussion of the CENOMAR or Certificate of No Marriage.

My fiance is from the Philippines. We want to hold a religious ceremony, but not have it registered with the government, so its more like an engagement party. But it would be nice to be able to wear the wedding dress and do the whole wedding reception thing, as my fiance currently is pregnant and we cant do the back and forth once the k1 comes through because of a newborn child and possibly her still being pregnant.

Many strongly advise to not hold any sort of religious ceremonies and all this because it may be viewed as an actual wedding and get denied, even though there is no marriage certificate.

But the Philippines has the CENOMAR which is a certificate for no marriage.

If we have this ceremony, and dress it up like a wedding so that everyone is happy and we dont have to return to the PI for this after we have a newborn, wouldnt it be ok?

I would think given that she would arrive to the interview with a current CENOMAR to prove that she ISNT married, she could be approved.

Does anyone have actual experience with this, not just be careful and i wouldnt suggest it, but has anyone had this sort of circumstance work out for them?

Thank you!

Good morning, I am sure I will get flamed for this but here it goes. 

I had a Thai Buddhist ceremony with my fiancé. We applied for K1 visa. We included approx 100 photos of us together   Approx 20-30 were of the ceremony. We had zero issues. Now that was Thailand so I can’t speak to other countries. I would think an embassy employee and CO would be familiar with the customs in the country they’re assigned to.  I had legal advice that it was ok to include the photos. We just explained did a ceremony there since her family wouldn’t be able to come to the US for the wedding. I don’t agree with the looking too married thing. You either are or you aren’t. With that said I am sure some folks have run afoul doing the same thing we did. Be honest and forth coming and don’t hide anything. If you put it right out in front and explain it that kinda takes away the suspicion.  My own two cents 

[notantifun 196]

Calm down, people. A mock wedding isn't fraud.

[Dashinka 24,814]

Just now, notantifun said:

Calm down, people. A mock wedding isn't fraud.

It may not be fraud, but it may be a reason for denial of a K1 and bring up a lot of unnecessary headaches.

 

To the OP, please review the risks and make your decision accordingly.  I know what I would do, but this is your decision and risk.

 

Good Luck!

[notantifun 196]

3 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

It may not be fraud, but it may be a reason for denial of a K1 and bring up a lot of unnecessary headaches.

 

To the OP, please review the risks and make your decision accordingly.  I know what I would do, but this is your decision and risk.

 

Good Luck!

The only reason it will be the reason for denial is if they let the embassy know........ with the mock wedding pics and all. Only idiots will do that. People do mock weddings all the time. I don't know any law that prohibits that.

[Dashinka 24,814]

1 minute ago, notantifun said:

The only reason it will be the reason for denial is if they let the embassy know........ with the mock wedding pics and all. Only idiots will do that. People do mock weddings all the time. I don't know any law that prohibits that.

Personally I wouldn’t bet on the consulate not finding out in other ways during random checks, etc.  If they (CO) do and suspect something they may ask about it then the interviewee needs to be truthful.  My only point is that their are risks, and many many examples of couples being denied a K1 or I129F for this exact same issue.  Sure, there are many that have no problems, but it is a risk that must be considered.

[Unlockable 7,315]

1 hour ago, notantifun said:

Calm down, people. A mock wedding isn't fraud.

Only one person mentioned it was fraud. And they were checked on it immediately after.

 

58 minutes ago, notantifun said:

The only reason it will be the reason for denial is if they let the embassy know........ with the mock wedding pics and all. Only idiots will do that. People do mock weddings all the time. I don't know any law that prohibits that.

Yet we have many threads on this site in the pass where people have been denied for having such ceremony. Including an incident where the CO was viewing social media for pics of the ceremony of the couple.

 

It is up to the OP to do decide. Many have done it. But like I said, we have also seen people get denied for it.

Edited December 5, 2017 by NuestraUnion